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the cycling algorithms

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CHRIS 037

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the cycling algorithms

PostMon Apr 25, 2011 12:13 am

Hi Martin,

I seem to be having trouble understanding what the various cycling modes actually do.

I have set up groups of 24 speakers. I've used the cycle ranks, octaves, etc. as I did with 12 speaker groups. At first I thought I was getting 24 separate speakers going but I don't understand some of what's happening.

For one thing, when I set a rank to route the bottom pipes from midi #48 down to one output and the main rest of the rank to a 24-speaker group, which speaker gets the first pipe (midi #48)? I'm getting results that suggest that the numbering for pipe #48 stays at the start of the second octave where speaker #13 would be, whether or not the bottom octave has been routed elsewhere. I had hoped that the output to speaker #1 would start with the first pipe in the group.

Another odd result. When set as above, I can hold C midi #48 down and play up the rest of the keyboard and the other pipes all go to separate speakers. But when I hold down C# midi #49, the pipe for C midi #60 goes to the same speaker as the C#(?). This continues all the way up the keyboard: D #50 and C# #61 are to the same speaker, etc. I was expecting that the overlap would not come within the 24-speaker group from C #48 to B #72. The same holds true with a second rank in the same group on, though it is a different speaker that plays the two pipes.

It's certainly true that the sound does indeed get spread around a whole lot and the effect is very good. But I just don't understand what I'm observing.

So now I'm wondering if groups of 24 are as useful as I originally thought. Am I using the wrong algorithm? Or perhaps I was right before in thinking that groups of 12 were the best choice.

Thanks,

Leo Chris. :?
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mdyde

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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostMon Apr 25, 2011 8:41 am

Hello Leo,

(Topic moved here.)

For the 'Cyclic within octave, octaves and ranks cycled' algorithm the speaker number within the group to which a pipe will be routed is calculated as follows:

note_in_oct = (MIDI note number) mod 12
oct_num = (MIDI note number) / 12
num_speakers = number of speakers in the group
rank_seq_num = a number generated for the rank by sorting the ranks by RankID and then assigning an incremented number to each in turn (0 for the first rank, 1 for the second rank, etc.).

speaker_num = ( note_in_oct + oct_num + rank_seq_num) mod num_speakers

Hence with more than twelve speakers in a group any one rank will repeat within just twelve of them but ranks will be distributed evenly across all of speakers, so you still get a better spread than with twelve or less speakers in a group.

Hope that helps.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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CHRIS 037

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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostMon Apr 25, 2011 10:57 am

Ahhh, yes! Thanks Martin,

That really helps a great deal!

Leo Chris. :D

BTW: Would you share the algorithm for the other cycling algorithm? I've never been certain I do understand all that.
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostMon Apr 25, 2011 11:05 am

Thanks, Leo.

BTW: Would you share the algorithm for the other cycling algorithm? I've never been certain I do understand all that.


Sorry - I'm afraid I haven't really got time to do that at the moment (it's very hectic here right now, since it's just after a major release) but we'll do our best to do that for you at some point in the future.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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CHRIS 037

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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostMon Apr 25, 2011 11:30 am

Understood! Thanks.

Leo Chris.
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostMon Apr 25, 2011 6:22 pm

Hello All,

I really have to thank Martin for the above algorithm. I can now use EXCEL to find out what various different speaker groupings do using the "Cycle within octaves, octaves and ranks cycled."

I have set up a spreadsheet that 'tells it all.' You may download it from my website and have a look if you wish.
http://leochristopherson.com/
scroll down to the third major section and find the title (link)
"The EXCEL file for 'Cycle within octaves, octaves and ranks cycled.'"
Right clicking should give you the save (download) option. This is an .xlsx file for EXCEL.

On line 19 of the sheet you can enter the number of speakers you are interested in. The top table shows the distribution of 10 ranks across the 61 note keyboard. I have added a tally of speaker usage for 24, 16, and 12 speakers.

To my great surprise, I find that 12 speaker groups are the best by quite a bit! That is, the most effective distribution of all the speakers. . . hmm. . . very interesting! I think that's because the cycling is based on 12 note octaves. Perhaps there could be (someday) a 'Cycle within group, pipes and ranks cycled.'

BTW: I have neglected my website for a time now owing to having lost the password to edit it! Recently I found the password and can begin updating things. I notice lots of problems, since I was using the old MS Front Page before, and I now have gone to MS Expressions 4. Depending on the browser one uses, titles and headings may not come through as planned originally. Good ol' MS Internet Explorer does still show things the way they were, if anyone uses that still.

My conclusion is that I will keep using the six groups of twelve speakers each.

I certainly would be interested in comments HW folks may have about other arrangements and groupings of speakers.

Be well, :)

Leo Chris.
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostTue Apr 26, 2011 6:07 am

Thanks, Leo.

Perhaps there could be (someday) a 'Cycle within group, pipes and ranks cycled.'


I'll log it as an enhancement request.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostTue May 03, 2011 6:27 am

Chris,

Can you explain how to get a multi-speaker setup to work? I have 14 mono channels and it looks like I can assign a rank to either a mono channel or a stereo channel. I don't see how I can have it cycle through 6 or 12 channels.
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostTue May 03, 2011 6:55 am

Hello Schantzplayer,

Can you explain how to get a multi-speaker setup to work? I have 14 mono channels and it looks like I can assign a rank to either a mono channel or a stereo channel. I don't see how I can have it cycle through 6 or 12 channels.


Have a read through the 'Audio routing and multi-channel audio' section in the Hauptwerk user guide if you haven't already (starts on page 160 in the current v4.0.0 version of the guide).

Basically ranks are always assigned to audio output *groups* (not logical audio outputs directly) and to get cycling you need to have more than one logical audio output in each group with the desired cycling algorithm selected on the 'General settings | Audio output groups' screen.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostTue May 03, 2011 11:57 am

Hi schantzplayer,

What I would do to set up, let's say, two groups of 6:

Go to the General Settings/Audio output groups and insert two groups, let's say Group A and Group B. (Actually name them as you wish.) Set each to the 'Cycle within octave, octaves and ranks cycled'. Ignore the warning you get for now when you OK that.

Then go to General Settings/Audio outputs and insert 12 outputs (ignore whatever else may be there for now). Call them, let's say, A01, A02, A03, A04, A05, A06, B01, B02, B03, B04, B05, and B06. These are your 12 speaker outputs named as to the group they will go to. The names can be anything actually, however, just use names that you will understand.

Now you need to 'attach' each output to a speaker. Click on A01 and make sure the Audio output device is set to your multiple speaker interface. Then set the output to mono. The default is stereo which shows a left and right Device channel. When you select mono, only one Device channel will show. Open the Device channel window and select which actual speaker you want that output to go to. If your audio interface is installed correctly, HW should 'see' all available outputs.

Assign all 12 outputs to actual speakers. . . no output can go to more than one speaker, and each speaker can be used only once, not every speaker has to be assigned.

Next you need to select the tab at the top of the window for Routing. Click on output A01 and set the Output type as Primary and select output group 'Group A'. Do the same sort of thing for the other 11 outputs. Both Group A and Group B should appear there.

When you finally click on OK you may get warnings/errors because you have assigned things incorrectly, if so get back in there and correct the errors. (Imagine what this is like with my 90 some outputs!). Also, you will get warnings if there are still conflicting assignments left from what you had there before. You can now go back to the Audio Outputs and delete unneeded/unused output groups. Do the same in the Audio outputs section. When you get an OK with no warnings you should be good to go!

The next step is to load an organ and assign its ranks to the two output groups as you desire. HW does the rest.

I hope this helps. I must confess that for a time there, I was totally confused about how to get this all going, but by now I think the resulting cleaner sound is well worth the learning curve.

Leo Chris.
PS: It is pretty hard to describe all this. Please ask questions as necessary! :)
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Re: the cycling algorithms

PostTue May 03, 2011 8:48 pm

Thanks Chris,

That is a big help to get the experiment started. I have read the manual numerous times, but as you said, it is a difficult concept until you play around with it. Your explanation was very helpful.

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