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"Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby 1961TC4ME » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:57 pm

MikeDC wrote:Thank you Andrew!

That's a lot of shake, rattle, and roll you got going there! MikeDC


Hello Andrew,

Is your bench still in one piece? :lol:

Looks good!

Marc
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby Andrew Grahame » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:59 pm

Hi Marc,

The effect is actually quite subtle. The four pucks are there just for the impedance factor, as mentioned previously, but their placement spreads the effect evenly across the bench. Adjusting the volume and frequency cutoff controls for the subwoofer amp took some trial and error, but it's now stabilised to give a gentle boost to the 16-foot and 32-foot octaves. With the Shure headphones, which are reasonably light and have a wide stereo image it's easy to forget that you're wearing them. The overall effect of the headphones plus the pucks is most realistic, especially when adding the pedal 32s.

Andrew
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby 1961TC4ME » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:00 am

Hi Andrew,

O.K., I follow what your're saying and can see with the pucks under the bench and a good set of headphones I can imagine the outcome is quite realistic. I've looked at the pucks a couple of times, but being I don't use headphones 99.9% of the time I've decided for now to explore other alternatives for acheiving the lowest of frequencies. Haven't quite gotten there yet (but I'm doing a good job of shaking the house as is :D ), so maybe a few sets of those pucks are still in my future just yet. 8)

Marc
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby TheOrganDoc » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:04 pm

My problem, with my "Big Shaker",
is that my amp does not have flat response down below "16' E" ,
so I have to switch amplifiers, to get the effect I desire ! :roll:
(BTW, A "headphone amp will definitely not provide,
the power required for any Shaker")

One more hint,
is to install "felt or rubber under all of your Organ Bench Legs",
so only it and you vibrate,
Not everything in the Room !
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby engrssc » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:06 pm

TheOrganDoc wrote:My problem, with my "Big Shaker",
is that my amp does not have flat response down below "16' E" ,
so I have to switch amplifiers, to get the effect I desire ! :roll:
(BTW, A "headphone amp will definitely not provide,
the power required for any Shaker")]


You need to check the specs for the amp you want to use for the shaker(s). Even some sub amps don't go down into the range that you are looking for, some even cutoff at 100 hz which is too high for the bass. The amp should go down to some where around 20 hz or so) even if not totally flat down there. Likewise the top freq you feed the shakers must be considered and compliment (in the case of either head phones or spkrs) their frequency response. You want the transition between the headphones or spkrs and the shakers (or subs) to be relatively even, not abrupt or you won't be satisfied. Some folks have said - audio - no big deal. Well it is if you want good results. As has been said many times, even when you consider pedal tones (as being low frequencies), there is considerable harmonic content in upper frequencies as well. Hence the need to make the transition that we mentioned as even and smooth as possible that is if want impressive results.

Another important consideration (aside from a low amp's freq response characteristic) is the fact that it takes quite a bit of power to (in the case of a spkr type sub) to move air at these ultra low frequencies. This is the "feel that bass" effect. (And you know of my posts about the HouseWrecker system that if we want to believe the marketing hype, it states that the HouseWrecker can levitate a small rug off the floor at a distance of 3 ft away.. In the case of pucks or ButtKickers, they, too, have to move, well let's say the "occupier" of the organ bench proper. :wink:

BTW, speaking of silent, if you read Brett's announcement, you know the Forum will be silent after Dec 25 for a short time. We can likewise wish Brett, Martin D and all others involved in making this Forum happen the very best for these upcoming holidays and we, too, look forward to the New Year with Hauptwerk and all the many contributors who share with us on this Forum. Good Job(s) all. :lol:

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby Eric Sagmuller » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:40 pm

MikeDC wrote:Thank you Andrew!

It looks like I'll need at least two pucks however, so that I can get the load down to 8 Ohms. The headphone amp can handle 4-8 Ohms.

MikeDC


Amplifiers generally are rated for a minimum impedance. Higher impedance is absolutely fine, but one just gets less power out of the amp, unless it's a tube amp with a transformer to match the impedance. I would be very surprised if a headphone amp has enough power to drive these, then again the way kids like the music blaring, the amp may put out more power than I think.

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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby 162_Ranks » Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:41 pm

Question:

I attempted this setup, with the Dayton Pucks (two in parallel to give a 4 ohm load to an amp rated at 65w into 4 ohms). The effect is indeed quite nice, but the pucks seem to have some resonance frequencies where I can hear the internals rattling about, even at quite low "volume" levels. Did anyone else who attempted this project have a similar result or do I have a defective "puck"?

Brad
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby GrahamH » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:55 pm

I tried a pair of the Dayton pucks but they only seemed to be effective around a resonance frequency corresponding to 16 foot bottom F. They didn't do anything much below that and they certainly didn't respond to the bottom octave of 32 foot stops.
I concluded that the Dayton pucks might be OK under a gamer's chair or even in a home cinema scenario, but they were simply not big enough to shake my organ bench at the low frequencies produced by 16 and 32 foot organ pipes.
However, after doing a Google search for DIY tactile transducers and watching some YouTube videos I used an old 8 inch loudspeaker driver to make a unit that is effective. I guess an even larger driver (say 12 inch) would be awesome!

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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby Andrew Grahame » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:14 pm

Hi Graham,

I think you should look again at the amplifier you are using to drive them. Is it a dedicated subwoofer amp? I use a subwoofer amp to drive my Dayton pucks and they most certainly do respond - and very well indeed - to the notes of the 32-foot bottom octave. They also respond nicely to the 16-foot bottom octave right down to bottom C.

As to the "rattle" which others have observed - I've not noticed any "internal" rattle in the course of several years' use. I have, on the other hand, heard a violent "external" rattle if I've put too much power or too much low frequency sound into them - but that's the sound of the unit straining against the mounting screws and rebounding against the wooden bench. If that happens it's too loud anyway, and turning it down solves the problem.

Andrew
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby murph » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:20 pm

Just a quick interjection:
Most "butt-kickers" are designed to do just that, to a drummer. They should bounce a weight against a drum-stool when a kick-drum is hit. Some of the better ones will also give a reasonable effort at letting the drummer know when a bass guitar string has been plucked, but they don't really do notes very well.
The good ones are built into drum-stool cushions, not bolted on underneath the wood on existing ones.

Also, most dedicated amp systems for them employ quite a lot of compression, to keep the mechanics within the optimum operational range of the drivers.
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby Andrew Grahame » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:23 pm

Perhaps I'm lucky with my installation. The realism the pucks provide to the extreme bass is astounding.
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby murph » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:58 pm

Andrew Grahame wrote:Perhaps I'm lucky with my installation. The realism the pucks provide to the extreme bass is astounding.

The correct unit, decent amp and sensible levels DO work with them. Also, a lot depends on the bench, how/where it is braced, how thick it is and where the units are mounted.

(I normally set drummers stools up with real music and the result can be quite good. However, by the time the drummer/monitor engineer/timing differences from the PA get involved, extreme butchering of frequency/dynamics is usually required, which is how the manufacturers expect the drivers to be used.)
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby GrahamH » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:27 am

Hi Andrew

I used one of these:
http://www.velleman.co.uk/contents/en-uk/p308_k8060.html

Perhaps I was unlucky with my Dayton installation, but the DIY job worked as expected straight away, using the same amp, so I'm sticking with that.
Anyway, I gave the pucks to one of my sons to try with his gaming console, but I don't think he has got round to it ...
The seat of my organ bench is solid oak, 32 mm thick. The cannibalised speaker driver is suspended from a wooden batten which is screwed flush against the bottom of the seat, more or less centrally, and I put a low-pass filter between the amp and and the speaker.

Regards

Graham
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby 162_Ranks » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:17 am

I might try a slightly higher rated piece of kit:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JZTOIE6/re ... XURBAPAGV2

I'll report back.
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Re: "Feel the Bass" with Silent Subwoofers

Postby 162_Ranks » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:38 pm

Well, I have upgraded my installation to the Clark Synthesis Silver as I reported above. Initial impressions are excellent. The lower bass (32' register) is much better defined, and the evenness of the notes is better. For the relatively small additional cost (about $100 more) I am very impressed with the improvement over the Pucks.

I'm still driving it with an el-cheapo $28 amp, which only puts out 65 watts (if you believe the spec which I don't) compared to the required 100 watts. However, "realistic" volume levels are so minuscule that I don't think I'll ever need the missing watts. I have the volume at about 0.5 on the 0-10 scale on the knob.

Edit: I'd make one change if I were doing it again - I'd get a more standard amp which I can leave on my console table rather than an "ugly" one intended for hidden install, as the amp knob actually rattle a bit at times since they are so close to the shaker.

It looks "interesting" but not really noticeable when flipped over.
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