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Noob Free User Questions

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suntower

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Noob Free User Questions

PostSun Feb 02, 2014 9:53 pm

Hi,

I just installed the Free version and I have some questions. I want to give some (brief) background.

I write orchestral music in Cubase. I don't call myself an organist... although I play for my (small) parish Mass frequently. (Frankly, I just play chorales. There's a cheat sheet taped to the console with the buttons I need to press. I would hardly be able to turn the thing 'on' otherwise.) IOW: I know practically zero about 'organ'. When I need 'organ' for my compositions, I use sample presets from EastWest based on what seems appropriate. They are generally fine... they certainly sound 'epic'... but subtle? Not so much. So I was looking for something 'better'. Before I tried Hauptwerk I was planning on spending about $300 on another sample lib from VSL for this purpose.

I've figured out how the VSTLink works and I've been playing with the St. Anne's organ and it's -great-. Definitely has the subtlety I'm looking for (if not the tone colours.) So... my questions:
1. Does the 'basic' model ($249) include more 'sounds' or are you basically paying for the ability to sound more simultaneous 'pipes'? If it -does- include more 'sounds' which are they?

2. What is the best way for a noob like me to get up to speed on the various organ types so I can choose what to purchase? If I stick with Hauptwerk, I would -need- an 'epic' organ sound (the Disney Toccata & Fugue In D). I'm also looking for something suitable for the impressionistic/late romantic (Durufle?) stuff I'm working on.

3. I've looked at the various 'free instrument downloads'. What is the difference between an 'Evaluation' and a 'Free' and a 'Shareware' license? I've looked at some of the paid instruments and they are -way- too pricey for me right now. I don't want something for nothing, but I want to know what my options are for getting some 'sounds' within my budget.

4.Finally, is there one 'go to' book you can recommend on registrations/organ types/history so I can get up to speed on what are the characteristic timbres one wants to hear in say a piece by Vierne or St. Saens vs. Bach.

I'm sure this has all been asked./answered 10,000xs so I appreciate the indulgence.

Best,

---JC
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telemanr

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostSun Feb 02, 2014 10:30 pm

The basic version, and indeed the full version do not come with any more sounds since they all only include the St. Anne's organ. To get more types of sounds you need to get other organs. Some organs have unencrypted samples and so one can take stops from several of these organs to create an organ which is a hybrid with the sounds you like from each separate organ. But it isn't particularly easy.
With organs which are encrypted you have only the stops (types of sounds) which that organ has.
Free organs are free. Shareware organs usually ask for a nominal donation. Others vary greatly in price but there are certainly reasonable organs for not a great deal.
The thing is there are French, German, Italian, Dutch, English, you name it, organs available and they all sound different and are best for certain repertoire. But people don't just play Vierne on French organs even if that's what he imagined when he wrote the music. The thing about Hauptwerk is that you can play Vierne or any other composer on an instrument designed for that music. But you don't have to.
Rob Enns
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pat17

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostSun Feb 02, 2014 11:02 pm

Hello JC,

Welcome to the forum! I shall answer to two of your questions only - not sure I could provide you with sensible information on the other two.

suntower wrote:1. Does the 'basic' model ($249) include more 'sounds' or are you basically paying for the ability to sound more simultaneous 'pipes'? If it -does- include more 'sounds' which are they?


The difference between the various versions of Hauptwerk do not affect Saint-Anne Moseley's virtual instrument as such. Same stops, same keyboard compass, same features in general.

The difference will lie more on the way you can configure and use the instrument. If you have not seen it yet, you have on this webpage a summary of what differs among free, basic and advanced versions -

http://www.hauptwerk.com/learn-more/editions/

The free version will not allow you to load Saint-Anne with a high resolution. It will give you a limited polypony - number of sound generated simultaneously without audio glitch.

3. I've looked at the various 'free instrument downloads'. What is the difference between an 'Evaluation' and a 'Free' and a 'Shareware' license? I've looked at some of the paid instruments and they are -way- too pricey for me right now. I don't want something for nothing, but I want to know what my options are for getting some 'sounds' within my budget.


Free - you download it without any payment requested by its author.

Shareware - a contribution from your side is expected from the sample producer on a volunteer basis.

Evaluation - it corresponds to a "reduced" version of an organ you have to pay should you decide to get the full version. It can be reduced in several ways, including reduced number of stops, reduced compass (one octave can be played), chime sound generation, etc...

A complete list of such instruments can be found here - scroll down to the middle of the page - http://pcorgan.com/SampleSetsEN.html#SampleSetDownloads
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suntower

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostSun Feb 02, 2014 11:36 pm

Gentlemen. Thanks for taking the time. BTW: I am not a music 'noob'. Even back in university, there was very little overlap between organists and orchestral players. Eg. I can't even recall how modern organ music is marked wrt registrations...

So I couldn't possibly cobble together organs from parts... I'd have no idea which stops are apropos of which style or era. And wrt to choosing an organ, all my CDs will have the name of the church, but that doesn't tell me anything about the style or design of the instrument. I saw Virgil Fox years ago with his traveling beast and since his instrument was electronic he clearly could mix together -lots- of sounds. IOW: it wasn't -one- era-specific replica.

1. In short: I need an 'Organ For Dummies' (or 'Organ for composers') book. :D Got anything like that?

2. So it sounds like Hauptwerk is the smallest part of the expense. It is the 'razor'... it's the -blades- that really add up. The 'free' may even work for me as I really don't need a lot of polyphony (maybe). The timbres have to be right, though. The St. Annes sounds kinda 'concert hall' size to me. What I really need (at least for the moment) are 2 instruments...
a) a very intimate sounding instrument suitable for accompanying a singer with thick impressionistic chords (not those tiny baroque ones, though.) I don't know the 'stops' but those ones you hear in trumpet concerti ain't it.)

b) the St Saens Organ Symphony Epic Model. :D

Can someone give me recommendations for these two styles? Free or paid. Again, I'm not looking to get something for nothing... just trying to maximum my $ on a tight budget.

TIA,

---JC
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IainStinson

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 4:45 am

You ask about a book on the organ for a musician. You might look at
The Cambridge Companion to the Organ (Cambridge Companions to Music) [Paperback]
Nicholas Thistlethwaite (Editor), Geoffrey Webber (Editor)
Paperback: 354 pages
Publisher: Cambridge University Press (4 Mar 1999)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0521575842
ISBN-13: 978-0521575843

Copies at Amazon and other booksellers.

I've recommended this to a number of interested friends and they have been very pleased with the book.

Iain
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josq

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 5:05 am

Dear JC, I think very much depends on the following: do you want a lot of reverb in your organ sound? Or do they have to be dry, which means they come without reverb?

In the latter case, you may be able to add convolution reverb if desired.

If you go for organ samples with a lot of reverb ("wet" or surround sample sets), you will get by far the best result for home situations. However, it will demand a lot of resources: Hauptwerk Advanced license, expensive sample sets, a computer with 16 or even 32 GB of RAM and a high-end processor... An investment of $2000 will be the very minimum.

If you stick with dry or semi-dry samples (the St Annes instrument is perhaps semi-dry), then a lot more is possible with half of the resources required for wet sample sets.
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suntower

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 2:01 pm

@IainStinson. Thanks. I see the hardcover goes for $665. That must be some kind of book! :D I'll get the paperback.

@Josq. Thanks also. The sample libs I use now already have that 'epic' sound (big reverb) in one or two presets. One problem, which is hard to explain to non-organists, is that you're playing getting this 'combination' sound. You can't control separate manuals/pedals. It's fine for backgrounds, but it sounds unrealistic soloed. The other problem is that it is already slathered in huge reverb... from the space it was recorded in, of course.

So I -guess- I'd prefer a 'dryer' sound, because I already have reverb I use in my computer for mixing the other tracks and it would be nice to be able to blend them together more cohesively.

Most university concert halls have a smaller organ which can yield more intimate sounds and I guess that's what I'm thinking of. I have memories of some friends playing these small French pieces back then and it was great... quiet, rich... not the overwhelming stereotype. I kinda want to get back to that.

I'm sure this sounds totally moron to 'real' players. :D
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josq

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 2:54 pm

I think you here are confronted with the fact that orchestra and organ are generally optimized for different types of rooms. An organ can be very impressive in a cathedral, but for an orchestra all details easily are lost in churches. Vice versa, concert halls are optimized for orchestra, but the huge organ at the back of the stage will not sound very convincing. Surely, it might make a lot of noise, but you will never get the cathedral feel.

I doubt whether you should look for a compromise. I think it is better to make a choice if you want to have your music production optimized for orchestral sounds or for organ music. In the latter case you will face a huge investment in the order of $2000-$5000 (which is however not so expensive compared to electronic organs, which come in the $5000-$20000 price range). This has been my choice as an organ lover. I experience it as extremely rewarding.

However, if you want to optimize on orchestral music, it is perhaps better to use (semi-)dry samples, possibly with convolution reverb added. I think that with the St Anne's you have already a very nice instrument at hand. My suggestion is that you take your time to get familiar with it. Especially when combined with external reverb it is possible to get a quite grand sound out of it, while natively it is certainly very suited to get more intimate sounds in many colors. With some efforts, you will continue to discover new sound colors for months to come. Downloading other free sets never will do any harm.

The Hauptwerk user guide gives a brief and very clear introduction to the essentials of organ registration at p45. I'm sure you will find it useful while experimenting.
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mkc1

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 6:20 pm

Hi JC.

Since you mentioned French organ music, here's a bit of an introduction to its registration:

http://www.organmatters.com/index.php?topic=365.0

Also, you like like the free demo of the Casavant organ at Concordia University:

http://clrresources.com/hauptwerk-instr ... -casavant/

The principal entroit on the positif is a particularly pleasant subtle stop, as is the bourdon and the flute majeure.

Enjoy!
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RichardW

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 7:06 pm

The free edition of Hauptwerk is truly excellent value! As you have noticed, it comes with a free organ which is an English Victorian organ suitable for a middle-sized church.

For sounds, start with the Great organ. Then select one of the diapasons, then principal, then fifteenth, then mixture. (That is, 8', 4', 2' then mixture.) That will deliver the basic organ sound. The Swell has a similar sequence: Geigen Principal, Salicit, Piccolo, mixture. The Great provides the standard organ sounds and the Swell gives you more "effects". For example, different sounds and variation in volume.

As far as I am aware, all organs have this "central pillar" of sound which you can either vary with other stops or go completely "off piste" and opt for some of the softer flute stops.

For different sorts of music, a proper organist will be able to find something suitable on nearly any organ. For beginners like me, I find it is easier to pick a French organ for French music (e.g. Widor) and a Baroque organ for baroque music (e.g. Bach).

Take a look at: http://www.pcorgan.com/SampleSetsEN.html then scroll to the bottom for the free samplesets. The free version of HW has lots of limitations about memory and polyphony but you can sometimes get round that by not loading all the pipes at once. Many of the free sample organs have samples straight out of the expensive sets so it gives you a very good idea of what you could buy.

Recordings of most of the organs can be found on this site: http://www.contrebombarde.com/. Many can also be found (both real and HW versions) on YouTube - but the sound quality is not so good.

I hope this helps,
Richard
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pointyflute

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostMon Feb 03, 2014 8:07 pm

Hi Suntower,

Like you, I'm not an organist but a composer. There's a free book on registration available on IMSLP which I found very helpful in getting started. Here's the link:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Organ_Registratio ... lsworth%29

You might find it helpful to listen to some of the posts on the Contrebombarde Concert Hall in order to evaluate different sample sets. Some of the posts give registration details, so you can hear what combinations or individual ranks sound like.

http://www.contrebombarde.com/concertha ... /dashboard

Best of luck! :D
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suntower

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostTue Feb 04, 2014 12:46 am

Thanks so much, gentlemen. I've gotten exactly what I was looking for... an entryway into this.

I'm finding the St. Anne's just as realistic as the one @ my parish... I press a button and something happens that I don't understand. :D I sure need to study, that's for sure.

One final thing from out in left field...

Is there a way to convert the 'Miditzer' organ into Hauptwerk format... or is that covered by the 'Paramount' download?
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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostTue Feb 04, 2014 2:36 am

Hi,

There are a number of Free and Donationware downloads that work with the Free Edition of Hauptwerk. So there are 'blades' available for you to learn from while you make your choice of what type of organ you are looking for and what style it needs to be (of course you won't just be able to choose one!).

Go to http://www.pcorgan.com/SampleSetsEN.html for a nice overview of what is available (there have been some new sets made available since this was last updated). At the bottom of this page you will find the Downloadable (freeware, shareware, trial) Samplesets lists. That's a good place to start :)

Then in regard to the Miditzer - your options for Theatre Organ in Hauptwerk are the Paramount series (Free 310 and then commercial 320, 332, and 450), the Milan Virginia Theatre Wurlitzer and Master works 3/31, the Jenson Connoisseur series (from 3/11 all the way up to a 3/35 if I remember correctly), the Ryhope Compton 3/9, and the Donationware Freedom Morton series (2/6, 3/10, 3/17) from Melotone Sound Productions, and then Barton series (3/7, 3/10, 3/12). Let us know what you're interested in and we can advise you further ;)

Kind regards,
GrahamG
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suntower

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostTue Feb 04, 2014 2:29 pm

Thanks Graham,

In the famous words of Donald Rumsfeld, these are 'unknown unknowns'. :D

I'm too ignorant to know what I want. I was hoping someone could further my laziness and say, "Oh yeah, xxx and yyy are the ones you want, mate. Forget all that other stuff."

Obviously there is some studying to do. It would be great if there was a book/CD somewhere with scores/registrations of, say, 'the standard repertoire' from Bach to Durufle with audio examples of the 'correct' kind of organ... location, builder, etc. for each piece. Sort of a 'Cliff Notes'.

I only mentioned the Miditzer because I gave it a try a couple of years ago, but because it had no way to connect to Cubase, I forgot about it. I'm not really a 'theatre organ fan' per se. But these things have some amazing timbres... especially -bass-. Far better than any synthesiser... and that -could- be quite useful for what I do.

Thanks again,

---JC
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RichardW

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Re: Noob Free User Questions

PostTue Feb 04, 2014 4:08 pm

I am not really a theatre organ fan but the free Paramount 310 has some very good demos. I would choose that for HW use.

Also, French scores quite often have the registrations indicated. As long as you have a Cavaille-Coll organ the stops on the score should match the ones on the organ - mostly.

This example has English style stops indicated as well:
Image
Richard

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