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Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

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RobF

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Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

PostSat Nov 26, 2011 12:34 pm

Equipment:
- Dell Inspiron 6400 laptop, 5 years old (1.6 GHz Intel dual core, 1 GB RAM; on-board sound chip HDA Intel with SigmaTel STAC9200 - that's similar to the chip a MacBook Pro has), runs Windows XP SP3 as well as Arch Linux
- Asus EeePC R101 netbook, 1 year old (1.6 GHz Intel Atom CPU, 1 GB RAM; on-board sound chip HDA Intel with Realtek ALC269VB), runs Windows XP SP3 as well as Arch Linux
- 49-key Alesis Q49 midi controller keyboard with non-weighted, velocity-sensitive keys
- Tascam US122MKII ext. USB soundcard or equivalent (to be acquired if it's needed)
- Grado SR125 headphones

I apologize for asking this rank newbie question.

I'd like to play medieval and renaissance organ literature (without the pedal part) on a simple virtual organ setup at home, consisting of an inexpensive midi controller keyboard directly hooked up via USB midi to either one of two computers with on-board Intel sound chips, and listen to this with good headphones. Presumably I would have to do this in Windows rather than Linux. Only live playback would be needed for now, no recording or composing/editing but I wouldn't want to run into distracting audio latency (>20 msec?).

Could I use Hauptwerk (Free Edition?) as the software for this and purchase one of their simple virtual organs? Does such a setup make any sense, in terms of playability? Two things concern me: a. Are these systems underpowered for Hauptwerk? b. Will there be problems with audio latency? Will I have to use an external USB soundcard such as the Tascam US122MKII to avoid latency problems? How would this all be hooked up, e.g. in terms of providing power to card and controller through USB? And is the Alesis keyboard usable for organ playing?

Are there alternative ways to accomplish the same thing, i.e. play simple old organ pieces and improvise on a simple old, nice sounding virtual organ at home, without spending $$$? And without having to resort to inexpensive Casio or Yamaha keyboards with their limited choice of pipe organ tones. If Hauptwerk isn't suitable, could I use Ableton Live Lite or Mixcraft 5 or Cubase LE4 for this in Windows XP or Rosegarden in Linux, with the above equipment?
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pwhodges

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Re: Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

PostSat Nov 26, 2011 1:11 pm

I've no idea how the Atom processor would manage - not too well, I should think. However, your Dell is more powerful than the one I used for my chamber organ in a concert a week ago (described elsewhere). That has a 1.2GHz dual-core processor and 1GB of memory. Running a modest dry set (six stops plus tracker, stop and blower noises) it had about 1/4 of the memory free, and driving four channels (I'm using the advanced edition) I couldn't get it up above 50% cpu whatever I did. A wet set would be more of a problem, of course, both in memory and in cpu usage. You can upgrade the memory in that laptop to 2GB for a mere £23 (that's Crucial's price in the UK) - if you have a single 1GB card in it already rather than 2x512MB, £12 for another 1GB would suffice. You could get a modest wet set into that (sufficient for your requirements, anyway), and it would play OK so long as it wasn't too wet (too wet would also not be good with the limited polyphony of the free edition). I would suggest the Prib chamber organ as a possible match for your requirements.

Latency might be more of a problem, as you will be most unlikely to find an ASIO driver for the on-board audio, and will therefore have to go through the Windows sound system. Even so, with careful setting up it should be acceptable, I imagine.

Paul
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mdyde

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Re: Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

PostSat Nov 26, 2011 3:34 pm

(Topic moved here.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mdyde

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Re: Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

PostSat Nov 26, 2011 4:15 pm

Hello Rob,

Thanks for the interest in Hauptwerk.

I'd agree with Paul that the dual-core Dell laptop is likely to perform better than the Atom-based netbook.

(I don't know for certain whether Hauptwerk can run on an Atom CPU, although it appears that the Atom does support the necessary CPU instructions sets to meet our minimum prerequisites, so I think it probably would at least run.)

On PCs, getting good resilience to audio glitches at low audio latency often does involve having a dedicated semi-pro/pro audio interface with an ASIO driver. However, you could certainly try Hauptwerk with your laptop's onboard audio interface's DirectSound driver - you might be lucky.

The freeware ASIO4All can sometimes also be used to coax acceptable low-latency performance from PC laptops' onboard audio outputs, and might give better performance than the DirectSound drivers for the onboard audio:

http://www.asio4all.com/

With a dedicated semi-pro/pro audio interface (or ASIO4All and your onboard audio if you're lucky), and if you upgrade it to 2 GB of memory, your Dell dual-core 1.6 GHz PC should be sufficient for small organs, such as the St. Anne's organ that's included with Hauptwerk or the various free smaller (e.g. chamber) organs that we host for download:

http://www.hauptwerk.com/downloads/instrument-downloads/

The Hauptwerk Free Edition allows a maximum polyphony of 256 and a maximum sample set memory usage of 1.5 GB anyway, so there's no great need for a larger/more powerful PC if you're planning to use the Free Edition.

You just need to make sure it meets our minimum prerequisites (all XP updates, sufficient free disk space, etc.):

http://www.hauptwerk.com/support/requirements/

Will I have to use an external USB soundcard such as the Tascam US122MKII to avoid latency problems? How would this all be hooked up, e.g. in terms of providing power to card and controller through USB?


I don't have any experience with that Tascam interface, but how it's connected depends on the interface you have. Many are powered by the USB/Firewire bus, so don't need a separate power supply. You just connect the audio/MIDI interface to the computer (via USB or Firewire according to its type), then connect audio leads from the audio outputs on your audio/MIDI interface to your amplifier/headphones.

Looking at the specs for your Alesis Q49:

http://www.alesis.com/q49#

... it has a conventional MIDI OUT port, so you could connect a MIDI lead from that to your audio/MIDI interface's MIDI IN port if your computer doesn't have enough space USB ports to connect an audio/MIDI interface at the same time as your Alesis keyboard.

Hope that helps.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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RobF

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Re: Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

PostTue Nov 29, 2011 6:20 am

@mdyde and pwhodges

Many thanks for your excellent responses, into which you put so much effort. I've found them extremely helpful and have much greater clarity now in which way I should proceed. Once I've got something functional working, I'll report back here and explain what I did.

Cheers,

Robert
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mdyde

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Re: Virt. organ on laptop w. midi kbd - audio latency problems?

PostTue Nov 29, 2011 6:22 am

Thanks, Robert.

Good luck.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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