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Touch sensitive key noises

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.

Touch sensitive key noises

Postby puciak » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:40 pm

How to create touch sensitive key noises? In all my sample sets only attack part is touch sensitive, release plays always with full volume. Now for the next sample set I copied solution from St. Annes Moseley, to connect division input switch to extra switch (which plays release sample) with 7/4 action codes, but it still plays at full volume. I've loaded St Annes sample set and I can't feel any touch sense - mabe it wasn't implemented. Maybe the solution is to add 1 sample long loop at the beginning and release point after that 1 sample, but it's a bit bizarre.
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby mdyde » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:52 pm

Hello puciak,

Neither the St. Anne's sample set, nor the real St. Anne's organ (which has an electric action), is velocity-sensitive (or aftertouch-sensitive); the only feature along those lines which the sample set has is multiple release samples for the pipe samples, in order to model the release/reverb characteristics of notes played briefly more realistically.

Do you mean that you're trying to add key action noises whose key-release noises depend upon the MIDI note-off message's velocity? (If so, that is technically possible within the full organ definition format, but not within the Custom Organ Design Module [CODM] format, but note that very few MIDI keyboards support MIDI note-off velocity, so probably almost no end users would actually benefit from it, and you would need such a MIDI keyboard yourself in order to be able to test it properly.)
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby puciak » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:57 pm

I want to set velocity of release the same as of attack. The vast majority of MIDI keyboard doesn't send note off velocity information, so it's better to use this from note-on.
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby mdyde » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:07 pm

Thanks, Puciak.

Just to make sure I'm clear:

- You're specifically referring to key action noise samples (as opposed to pipe release samples)?

- If so, you want to use a single action noise sample for a given key's release, but for the original note-on's velocity to control the amplitude with which that sample is played (as opposed to having several action noise samples for a given key, which are selected based upon the velocity, for example)?
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby puciak » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:47 pm

Yes, I meant key action samples. I got 5 samples per note with different velocities. It is working well for attack samples, but I can't get it working with release samples. Velocity information is not sent via SwitchLinkage - neither variant with 7/4 action codes or normal codes 1/2, but with inverted behaviour (SourceSwitchLinkIfEngaged=N).
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby mdyde » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:34 am

Hello Puciak,

Velocity information does get sent through SwitchLinkages, but it will be the velocity that caused the status change that will be sent, i.e. the velocity of the key release in this case. There's no native functionality in Hauptwerk to store the velocity of a key's/switch's original attack/engaging action, and then to send it again (i.e. delayed) when the key/switch subsequently disengages.

If you really wanted to achieve that effect, then you would need to make the sample sustaining (with a loop and release marker), so that you could use the Pipe_SoundEngine01_ReleaseSample.AttackSelCriteria_HighestVelocity attribute to select the sample. (I would recommend avoiding an extremely short loop, since it would add significantly more CPU overheads than a longer one).

(That said, I'm not sure that I really see why you would want to select key action release samples based on a key's original note-on velocity, which seems unrealistic to me, unless perhaps the key had been pressed only for a very brief amount of time.)
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby puciak » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:10 am

That said, I'm not sure that I really see why you would want to select key action release samples based on a key's original note-on velocity, which seems unrealistic to me, unless perhaps the key had been pressed only for a very brief amount of time.

So what do you propose? As for me when attack samples are touch sense, it's extremely unnatural when releasing the key causes playing release sample with let's say the loudest variant. Usually player releases the key with similar velocity - when he plays hard, he releases hard too, when he plays soft, he gently releases the keys.
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby mdyde » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:33 am

Hello Puciak,

Yes -- I suppose it's a reasonable assumption that if a key is played softly then it's more likely than not to be released softly. (The only perfect solution would of course be to use a MIDI keyboard with note-off velocity, but they're very uncommon, as we know.)
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby telemanr » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:41 pm

What about compromise? You are going to have to anyway aren't you? Reduce extreme volume of the sound so there isn't a huge difference when the key is released softly.
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby puciak » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:26 pm

I think it's worse compromise than mine. In general I don't change volume of recorded samples, I would like to stay with that.
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby engrssc » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:28 pm

mdyde wrote:Yes -- I suppose it's a reasonable assumption that if a key is played softly then it's more likely than not to be released softly. (The only perfect solution would of course be to use a MIDI keyboard with note-off velocity, but they're very uncommon, as we know.)


I'm "speaking" in an unknown territory. But couldn't a note-off velocity be "created" by the program of the encoder in reverse of what a touch response encoder does presently? It would need to calculate the timing between the release of the lower key contact vs the release of the upper contact, in other words just the opposite way a normal velocity response encoder works? I'm asking because I don't know.

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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby jkinkennon » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:59 am

engrssc wrote:couldn't a note-off velocity be "created" by the program of the encoder in reverse of what a touch response encoder does presently?


A very simple thing to do. Just make room for the velocity in whatever key table or translation table is in use. Stuff the most recent NoteOn velocity next to that key code and recall it for NoteOff. I'm sure most of the encoder designers would add that at a very nominal charge.
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby engrssc » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:08 am

Possibly considered a soft release? I use that technique at times when playing the piano.

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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby puciak » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:24 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello Puciak,

Yes -- I suppose it's a reasonable assumption that if a key is played softly then it's more likely than not to be released softly. (The only perfect solution would of course be to use a MIDI keyboard with note-off velocity, but they're very uncommon, as we know.)

I still got a problem, implementing this compromise. Can it be done? I made blank loop for attack part of release sample, but Hauptwerk plays the quietest sample (because of NoteOff velocity = 0). For each release sample I created AttackSample with that blank loop sample and I set AttackSelCriteria_HighestVelocity parameters, maybe it wasn't necessary, because it is silent, maybe one attack with blank loop per note is enough (?). I set parameter AttackSelCriteria_HighestVelocity in ReleaseSample table for each sample of each key, but it still plays only the quietest one. So can it be achieved somehow?
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Re: Touch sensitive key noises

Postby mdyde » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:08 am

Hello Puciak,

Yes -- Pipe_SoundEngine01_ReleaseSample.AttackSelCriteria_HighestVelocity is the correct attribute to use, which will use whatever velocity the pipe started to sound with, i.e. the note-on velocity. Make sure the virtual 'pipe' is turned on when the key is pressed and turned off when the key is released in the conventional way (like a normal pipe) -- not pulsed on (or anything else exotic) via SwitchLinkages, for example. (Pulsing on from the note-off would pass the note-off velocity to start the pipe sounding.)

Also make sure that all of the other Pipe_SoundEngine01_ReleaseSample.AttackSelCriteria_... and Pipe_SoundEngine01_ReleaseSample.ReleaseSelCriteria_... attributes are set to their defaults, so that they don't influence/override the desired criterion ( Pipe_SoundEngine01_ReleaseSample.AttackSelCriteria_HighestVelocity ).

puciak wrote:maybe it wasn't necessary, because it is silent, maybe one attack with blank loop per note is enough (?)


Yes -- you could just use the same silent attack/sustain sample for all of the keys.
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