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Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.

Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby markusF » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:30 am

Hello,

I want to create my own sample sets. I have already recorded some organs in stereo. My question relates to the microphone position for a 6-channel recording.

Some examples:

1) 3 stereo pairs. 1. relatively close to the organ, 2. roughly in the middle of the church, 3. at the end / chancel of the church? All mics show direction organ?

2) same number and position of the microphones, but medium microphones directed to the side, rear microphones directed backwards to take up more Hall.

I'm not inexperienced in sound recordings, even with organs, but so far only stereo. Therefore, the question of the position and direction of the microphones of channel 3 + 4 and 5 + 6. I know, ultimately it depends on what sounds the best, but a few tips in advance are always helpful. I will only use the sample sets privately.

Many Thanks!
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby josq » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:26 pm

Not an expert opinion, but nevertheless useful I hope...

Some of us use stereo only, maybe because of limited RAM, or because they are using headphones or a stereo pair of speakers only. For that reason I would recommend to start by selecting the optimal position for a normal stereo recording, regardless of what the other positions are going to be. This position should provide an optimal blend of detail and acoustics.

Second, for surround sound, to me it appears that the best option might be to place the "rear" microphones at the same location, but pointing away from the organ into the space, to mainly record the reflected sound.

Third, given 6-channels, I would recommend to place the third set of microphones as close to the organ pipes as reasonably possible. This has two advantages: 1) the option to blend in more detail and direct sound 2) the option to use these "direct" channels as a semi-dry sample set, either for use in reverberant listening spaces or for adding artificial reverberation

This approach should satisfy anyone: those who prefer simple stereo sound, those who use surround, those who experiment with the dry+external reverb approach, and those who want to be able to blend direct and reflected sound in any combination.
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby markusF » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:05 pm

Hi,

Thank you for the tips! That brings me to a very different view.

The previous organ recordings were not for sample sets, but CDs. Here, the results were quite good, if I was with the first stereo pair about 3m away from the organ, and then the remaining microphones (position 2 + 3) mixed in as needed.

The organ I would like to sample is very unfavorable for the organist because he sits right in front of the pipes and really does not notice the surround sound.

As I often play on it, I find it interesting to hear how it sounds in the room. That's why my idea with the 6 channels.

Your tip I find more interesting and opens, as you wrote, quite different options.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby tf11972 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:10 am

1. if not already considered, I recommend to use omnidirectional microphones when recording an organ. These pick up sound equally loudly from everywhere and do not lower the bass like cardioid microphones. These are positioned either on a high tripod or two, depending on how far apart you want to point them. I made good experiences with a V-shaped arrangement on a single tripod using an OSS disk, otherwise you don't get a stereo localization.
2. as josq has already described, in a 6-channel recording you should aim pair 1+2 as close to the pipe mouths as possible, pair 3+4 as far away as the organ case is wide and pair 5+6 very far away and not too close to the walls to avoid unsightly reflections. If in doubt, always try it out!
3 Even if it devours more computer resources, a surround recording on a stereo set or headphones sounds fuller and more spacious.
Best regards
Thomas

www.forestpipes.de
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby markusF » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:38 am

Hello Thomas,

Thank you for the other useful tips! I will gladly include these in my experiments! If anyone is interested, here are the organs that I intend to sample:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yojxn6jqrun1o8a/AADqYeSCg1RO0D6xdX2IiftTa?dl=0

1) Leuggern / Switzerland, Hauser Positive
2) Böttstein / Switzerland, Hauser
3) Klingnau / Switzerland, organ building Geneva
4) Leuggern / Switzerland, Hauser

This will probably be a project over several years. First, I will sample the small positive and see how I get along with the programming. Finally, the big organ of Leuggern will be on the program.

Are there any people who do the programming for Hauptwerk against payment?

Best regards
Markus
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby dkoschinski » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:19 pm

Third, given 6-channels, I would recommend to place the third set of microphones as close to the organ pipes as reasonably possible


I would recommend to use real high-end small-diagram cardoid microphones on channel 1-2 very near to the front in a spread position. With those you will not loose any low frequencies. When you use omni's @ the front, they partly will pick up the room also and the sample will not be as dry as wished. As for channel 3-4 you should use omnidirectional microhones on a large stand in combination with a Jecklin-disc or pointed in AB on a microphone bridge from 90cm. (or taller). The position of the channel 5-6 omni-directional micropones very far away (in a room with large acoustics = 6-8 seconds) depends on the acoustic roll-off and in particular how the low frequencies reflect through the space. You should try the best position in the back. For large rooms these microphones are absolutely necessary. To record a small positive in a medium-dry room small-diagram cardoid microphones are recommended also, because they offer more definition.

Kind regards, Danny
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby murph » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:43 pm

I always find it highly frustrating when omnis are used to record rear channels. When siting at the bench/wherever, you do not hear the pipe direct sound coming from the rear walls, so why do sample-set producers think it sounds good? To me it's wrong.

My 2c.
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Re: Positions for 6 Channel Recording

Postby dkoschinski » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:21 am

I always find it highly frustrating when omnis are used to record rear channels. When siting at the bench/wherever, you do not hear the pipe direct sound coming from the rear walls, so why do sample-set producers think it sounds good? To me it's wrong.


We use omni's because they pick up the acoustics much better as cardoid microphones. But the main reason is that omni's pick up a better low frequency response. In most cases the bass is rolling through the rearsection.
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