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Getting Started: Creating Markers

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.

Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby sschaub » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:06 pm

Like others on these forums, I am considering trying my hand at creating a sample set. I have some realization of the magnitude of the task. I also have little experience in recording, and have struggled to understand some of the advice I've read on the forum. But I do have some experience with basic sound processing in Audacity, I am comfortable with command line tools and XML, and I have some local contacts who can probably help me with mics and recording. So I'm going to experiment and see how far I can get.

As I understand it, the process works like this:
1. Record organ samples, one rank and note at a time.
2. Denoise the samples and chop them into individual wav files.
3. Add info to each wav file to indicate locations of the loop and release point, and the recorded pitch.
4. Create an ODF or CODM-format XML file.

Could someone give advice as to the most efficient way to do this? For example, I was thinking of trying this approach:

1. Record each note of a rank, one after the other, in a wav file
2. Denoise the wav file (using Nick Appleton's Noise Reduce software)
3. Chop the file up into separate wav files for each note
4. Add markers to each wav file to indicate the loop point and release point
5. Add tuning info to each wav file (using the Hauptwerk Stop Prepare tool?)

Here are some questions:

I am fuzzy on how to add markers to the wav files to indicate loop and release points. I've read about Nick Appleton's Autoloop software, and am planning to try it out on adding loop points, but it doesn't appear to be able to add release points. I am planning to use Audacity to do much of my editing, but it does not appear to support editing loop / release points. I was thinking that if I hold each key down for the same length of time, that it should be possible to automate inserting the release point (at least getting it in the ballpark). Can someone recommend a free tool for this purpose?

Also, can anyone recommend a free tool to automate chopping the file up into separate wav files for each note? I would think that, after denoising a wav file, silence detection could be used to do this. Thoughts?

I've seen references to using the Hauptwerk Stop Prepare tool to autodetect the pitch of a note. Does it perform any other functions?

Have I missed any significant steps or points? I wish Charles Braund's guide were available!

Update: Charles's guide is available. I just ordered it from him and am looking forward to reading it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Stephen
Last edited by sschaub on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby RichardW » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:21 pm

Stephen,

Are you going to record multiple releases or just the one?

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Richard
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby sschaub » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:53 pm

RichardW wrote:Are you going to record multiple releases or just the one?


That's a good question. There is not much reverb in the room, and I am thinking that I may be able to get by with just one.

The Hauptwerk guide I read did not discuss recording multiple releases, so I am interested in hearing what is involved.
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby Mike 353 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:59 am

I don;t know of any automated tool for chopping up the master wave file into individual segments, but it doesn't take that long to do manually. I am in the process of doing it for another sample producer, and would be glad to help you out. Cool Edit works great for this, and for setting the release markers. As far as setting the loops, the best way to go is Sample Looper, by Pipeloops. Cool Edit can also help with taking hiss and wind noise out of samples. Contact me privately if you want more help.
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby CarsonCooman » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:30 pm

Mike 353 wrote:Sample Looper, by Pipeloops.


I'm pretty sure that Pipeloops has discontinued selling SampleLooper. So that is no longer an option.
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby RichardW » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:44 pm

Stephen,

I was just going by this:
Record each note of a rank, one after the other, in a wav file.
.

Presumably, you would hold down the note for a long time and therefore get the reverb caused by a long note. You would then need to hold the note down for a short time to record the reverb you get from a short note. I believe some organs have 3 or 4 reverberations recorded for differing length of notes. This makes the sound more realistic.

At some point you will need to tell HW which reverb to add to the steady tone for a particular note length. HW, I believe, crossfades the two signals to hide the join.

A dry sample set should be easier to make and then add the reverb when the sound is played.

Sorry, I don't do sampling so can't help much further.

Regards,
Richard
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby Morse » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:00 pm

I use a program that does a wonderful job of automating the process of splitting multiple sample files. Goldwave is inexpensive and has an autocue feature which will then automatically split the samples into sequentially named files: 1.wav, 2.wav, etc. A simple bat file will then automatically rename these to 036-C.wav, 037-C#.wav etc. This is much faster and easier than splitting and renaming the files by hand.

Other than noise reduction, I think the most tedious and time consuming process is setting the release points. There is software that claims to do this automatically, but if you really care about sample quality you will have to adjust the release points by eye in an editor such as Adobe Audition. There are always some samples, especially wet ones, that have very complex release envelopes and will fool software. I'm pretty sure that the true release can best be discerned visibly. If the release point is set too early, the note tends to hang on. If it's set too late, you lose part or all of the release transient.
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby sschaub » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:15 pm

Thanks to all for the responses thus far!

Al, thanks for the tip about Goldwave. I may look into that. A one year license is $20, and that could be well worth the time savings for an autosplit feature. You mentioned that there is software available that claims to set release points. Can you point me to it? I would think that, even if hand adjustment is needed, getting it in the ballpark would speed up the process. Also, you mentioned Adobe Audition for editing the release points. That's out of my price range at present. Can Goldwave be used to set release points?

Update: Ok, I should do my own research before asking some of these questions. I downloaded Goldwave tonight and found that it can be used to set cue points. Also, Appleton's latest version of Autoloop advertises the ability to set estimated release points. I look forward to giving it a try.

Stephen
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby Mike 353 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:39 pm

CarsonCooman wrote:
Mike 353 wrote:Sample Looper, by Pipeloops.


I'm pretty sure that Pipeloops has discontinued selling SampleLooper. So that is no longer an option.

I just got my copy several months ago. It is not listed on their website, but I think you can send them an email and get the link to purchase and download it.
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby pwhodges » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:04 am

If you click the purchase link in the trial it takes you to page on the website that says it is discontinued.

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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby ggoode_sa » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:36 pm

A nice opensource graphical tool for this is Lar's Palo's LoopAuditioneer (http://sourceforge.net/projects/loopauditioneer/ or http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/)

What LoopAuditioneer can do:

Load .wav files and display existing cue and smpl metadata (markers and loops)
Show the waveform with loops and cues drawn upon it and zoom in/out on amplitude
Play back the loops and cues for evaluation
Allow the user to choose which loops/cues to keep when saved or saved as...
Bit true data handling, even if header is re-written due to changes, there will be no degrading of the audio data
Give the user possibility to edit/create cue (release marker) position directly on the waveform with automatic adjustment to find the position with lowest RMS power closest to where the user clicked
Edit loops by right clicking on the loop table row
Create new loops manually if one knows the right sample numbers
Autosearch for good, natural loop points with a high degree of configurational control over the loopsearching process
Batch process all wav files in any source folder with freely selectable target folder to either overwrite the existing files or create copies of them
Autodetect pitch of sample and store information in file and manually edit dwMIDIUnityNote and dwMIDIPitchFraction.

Kind regards,
GrahamG
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby sschaub » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:49 pm

ggoode_sa wrote:A nice opensource graphical tool for this is Lar's Palo's LoopAuditioneer (http://sourceforge.net/projects/loopauditioneer/ or http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/)


Wow - thanks for the tip, Graham! That application sounds really impressive. I will definitely take a look. Have you used it for any projects?

Stephen
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby ggoode_sa » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:56 pm

Hi Stephen,

Yes! I'm using it more and more as I get more used to its settings :) (i.e. most recent work on the Barton Theatre Organ). I've helped Lars with testing it from its 0.1 alpha version... so let us know if you need any help with it or have some ideas to improve it :)

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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby sschaub » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:59 pm

ggoode_sa wrote:Yes! I'm using it more and more as I get more used to its settings :) (i.e. most recent work on the Barton Theatre Organ).


Wow - thanks for the offer of assistance. I look forward to trying it out.

Stephen
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Re: Getting Started: Creating Markers

Postby Octavin_32 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:39 am

Hi all,
I'm trying to set markers in my wav files with loopauditioneer 0.7.1.0 but Hauptwerk always says there are not markers in the files.

1.I have three pipes stored in a folder to check if it works (054-F#.wav, 055-G.wav, 056-G#.wav).
2.I open the folder with LoopAuditioneer and apply 'Autoloop' to each file. Then I apply the 'MIDI Pitch sttings' and set that into existing/manual pitch and choos the MIDI Note number of the file.
3.I save each file in a selected folder
4.I copy the folder into OrganInstallationPackages in an appropriate place that works with saples from others
5.When loading the wav files, Hauptwerk says: Diagnostic message 4662, 'the specified range marker does not exist in the file'

I also tryed using the batch processing with source and target folders, process 'serach for loops'. The same problem comes out when loading.

There must be something basic I'm missing due to my ignorance, but I can't find out. Any help please?
Thank you
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