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Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.

Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby tf11972 » Wed May 03, 2017 1:25 pm

Please remove the topic, if it's wrong there.

In order to get the values for the ODF of our sampleset, I wanted to reduce the amplitude of the tracker action noises with the Voicing Tool. But it's not working, what else I try. Reducing other noises works fine.

I haven't set MIDI numbers for the noises. Is this the cause?
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Thomas

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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Wed May 03, 2017 2:09 pm

Hello Thomas,

Am I correct in understanding that what you're trying to do is as follows:

- In your CODM ODF you set Divsion....KeyActionNoise_... attributes to specify the key action noises, and:

- Of those attributes you have the ..._ChooseMIDINoteNumRandomly=Y, and:

- With the resulting ODF loaded in Hauptwerk you're trying to use the 'Organ settings | Pipe and rank voicing' screen to adjust the amplitudes of those noises (with the appropriate rank selected, i.e. the same rank whose RankID you specified via the Divsion....KeyActionNoise_... attributes)?

[Note also that that amplitude adjustment on the voicing screen will only take effect next time that the sample is triggered, so if it's sustaining then you would need to release and re-trigger the relevant key to hear its amplitude change.]
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby tf11972 » Wed May 03, 2017 3:35 pm

Hello Martin,
we have set ChooseMIDINoteNumRandomly=N, because I have recorded two samples for every key (press and release).

Strange - it is working on Pedal
not working on 1st manual
working on 2nd manual until 075-D#, above not
not working on the 3rd and 4th manual

Several testers (Mac and Windows) of the sampleset tried to reproduce the issue, but all is working fine with them. Certainly I have reset all voicing before testing again, but this has no effect, too. Very weird.
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Thu May 04, 2017 6:02 am

Hello Thomas,

If it's working for some people, and for you for some of the keyboards and not others, then my guess is that your organ user settings/voicing have become misaligned with the IDs in the organ definition due to having made changes to the IDs in the ODF at some point. I'd suggest reloading the organ via the 'Design tools | Load organ (with design options)' screen, selecting all of the 'reset' options (and perhaps forcing the cache to be regenerated too, for good measure).

Does that solve it?
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby tf11972 » Thu May 04, 2017 3:01 pm

Thank you, Martin.

I will try this out at the Weekend.
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby tf11972 » Sat May 06, 2017 10:32 am

Unfortunately absolutely nothing had an effect, we lowered the volume in the ODF, I made everything like you told me, but the tracker noises are as loud as before. I am very perplexed at the moment.

Thank you for your help.
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Sat May 06, 2017 12:06 pm

Hello Thomas,

Although it shouldn't be necessary, does manually deleting the organ-config file, then recompiling the organ via the CODM and loading it make any difference?
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby tf11972 » Sun May 07, 2017 11:26 am

I have the impression it has worked on Pedal, Hauptwerk and partially on Positiv, but not on Swell and Choir Organ (which are the same samples). I don't know why :evil:
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Mon May 08, 2017 9:00 am

Hello Thomas,

In your CODM ODF for one of the divisions that isn't working for you, which of the following two sets of attributes are you using for the noises:

- Division.PercussiveEngagingKeyActionNoise_... and Division.PercussiveDisengagingKeyActionNoise_..., or:

- Division.SustainingKeyActionNoise_... ?

Also, if you temporarily disable the wind supply model on Hauptwerk's 'Organ settings | Organ preferences | Wind supply model' screen tab, and also set air flow randomisation to 0% on the 'Audio engine' screen tab, does that make the voicing amplitude sliders for the rank work properly? (I wonder whether perhaps you have the randomisation or wind supply attributes for the rank configured such that it's heavily randomised, making it difficult to tell whether voicing amplitude changes are having an effect.)

Also, on the voicing screen for the relevant rank, are all of the relevant sliders actually enabled for the expected MIDI note number range (i.e. at least spanning the MIDI note number range that the division itself has)?
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby chr.schmitz » Mon May 08, 2017 2:39 pm

Hello Martin,

as I am doing the CODM programming, I will answer to your question.

These are the parameters you are asking for:

WindModel_EnableWindModel: Y
WindModel_TotalResrvrAndWndchstVolMetresCubed: 1.5
WindModel_AreaOfReservoirTableMetresSquared: 1.5
WindModel_ResrvrBellowsPositiveDampingCoeff: 20
WindModel_WindchestPressureDropPctAtMaxLoad: 2

PercussiveEngagingKeyActionNoise_RankID: 105 (this is a full rank with engaging key action noises)
PercussiveEngagingKeyActionNoise_ChooseMIDINoteNumRandomly: N
PercussiveDisengagingKeyActionNoise_RankID: 106 (this is a full rank with disengaging key actions noises)
PercussiveDisengagingKeyActionNoise_ChooseMIDINoteNumRandomly: N
SustainingKeyActionNoise_RankID: (empty)
SustainingKeyActionNoise_ChooseMIDINoteNumberRandomly: (empty)

Is there something weird?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Tue May 09, 2017 7:01 am

Thanks, Chris.

Those attributes sound fine in themselves, although there are various other (Rank) wind supply model attributes that would affect it, so it would still be worth Thomas trying temporarily disabling the wind model via the organ preference, which should determine quickly whether the wind model was relevant to the issue.

Thomas -- as well as my previous questions:

mdyde wrote:Also, if you temporarily disable the wind supply model on Hauptwerk's 'Organ settings | Organ preferences | Wind supply model' screen tab, and also set air flow randomisation to 0% on the 'Audio engine' screen tab, does that make the voicing amplitude sliders for the rank work properly? (I wonder whether perhaps you have the randomisation or wind supply attributes for the rank configured such that it's heavily randomised, making it difficult to tell whether voicing amplitude changes are having an effect.)

Also, on the voicing screen for the relevant rank, are all of the relevant sliders actually enabled for the expected MIDI note number range (i.e. at least spanning the MIDI note number range that the division itself has)?


... is this the same ODF with which you'd been trying to move Hauptwerk's settings files around manually, as discussed in this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16129

If so, had you been trying manually to do anything at all to Hauptwerk's settings files prior to this voicing issue arising? (Trying to hack Hauptwerk's settings files could very easily cause issues like this.)

tf11972 wrote:I have the impression it has worked on Pedal, Hauptwerk and partially on Positiv, but not on Swell and Choir Organ (which are the same samples). I don't know why


If two divisions are referring to the same sample ranks (i.e. the same RankIDs for their engaging and disengaging noises) then voicing changes to the voicing of those ranks inherently *must* be affecting both divisions (since voicing is per-rank, not per-division).
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby chr.schmitz » Tue May 09, 2017 8:03 am

What additional wind model variables do you have in mind? The rank variables, which I see that may have an impact, are:

Position_LayoutOfPipesOnWindchestCode = 1
Position_RankDistanceFromListenerMetres = 4
WindSupply_DivisionCodeOfWindchest = 1
WindSupply_MaxFlowRandomisationPct = 20


Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum = 8
Pitch_MaxRandomTuningErrorHz = 0
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones = (empty)
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones = (empty)


Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_WindModelModDepthAdjustPercent: 25
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_WindModelModDepthAdjustPercent: 25 Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TremulantModDepthAdjustPercent: 100
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TremulantModDepthAdjustPercent: 100


I have to admit that for noises I never looked into these parameters in detail. When I now listed them, several questions came up:

- Should I set the WindSupply_DivisionCodeOfWindchest to the division, where the noise is attached to?
- Does it make sense for noises to set WindSupply_MaxFlowRandomisationPct to a value other than 0?
- Does it make sense for noises to set the parameters of the last group to a value other than 0?

If two divisions are referring to the same sample ranks (i.e. the same RankIDs for their engaging and disengaging noises) then voicing changes to the voicing of those ranks inherently *must* be affecting both divisions (since voicing is per-rank, not per-division).


They do not. Thomas recorded all key action noises for each division individually.

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Chris
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Tue May 09, 2017 10:18 am

Hello Chris,

chr.schmitz wrote:What additional wind model variables do you have in mind? The rank variables, which I see that may have an impact, are:

Position_LayoutOfPipesOnWindchestCode = 1
Position_RankDistanceFromListenerMetres = 4
WindSupply_DivisionCodeOfWindchest = 1
WindSupply_MaxFlowRandomisationPct = 20

Pitch_RankBaseOutputPitch64ftHarmonicNum = 8
Pitch_MaxRandomTuningErrorHz = 0
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones = (empty)
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TuningAdjustPercentSemitones = (empty)

Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_WindModelModDepthAdjustPercent: 25
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_WindModelModDepthAdjustPercent: 25 Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum036_TremulantModDepthAdjustPercent: 100
Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TremulantModDepthAdjustPercent: 100


Yes -- those are the relevant ones. It's probably quicker, though, just to wait until Thomas has tried disabling the wind supply model via the organ preference, since that should show immediately whether the issue is related to the wind model or not.

chr.schmitz wrote:Pitch_PipeMIDINoteNum096_TremulantModDepthAdjustPercent: 100


You would want to have Rank.Trem_TremulantCode=0/null, since you wouldn't want a tremulant modulating the noises.

Apart from that note, your other values sound reasonable.

chr.schmitz wrote:- Should I set the WindSupply_DivisionCodeOfWindchest to the division, where the noise is attached to?
- Does it make sense for noises to set WindSupply_MaxFlowRandomisationPct to a value other than 0?
- Does it make sense for noises to set the parameters of the last group to a value other than 0?


It's up to you. You might want some flow randomisation (from somewhere, and at whatever levels you felt suited) so that each key press of a given key resulted in the relevant noise sample having some sound variation, i.e. to randomise the sound of the noise samples a bit over time. However, you'd need to be careful it wasn't excessive.

The way I ended up configuring it for the example CODM St. Anne's can be seen in ExampleCustomOrgan5-StAnnes-WithBasicGUIAndNoises.CustomOrgan_Hauptwerk_xml (RankID 29, which is used for all of the virtual divisions and the notes randomised), but there are plenty of other perfectly valid approaches.
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Re: Voicing tool not working on noise samples

Postby mdyde » Tue May 23, 2017 11:43 am

A quick update on this: I've been investigating this with Chris and it turned out to be a small bug in the way that the CODM was compiling key action noise samples in a specific situation. We'll include a fix for that in the next major Hauptwerk version, and Chris has some work-arounds for now. My apologies for the bug.
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