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Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.

Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby sasschary » Thu May 11, 2017 7:15 pm

Hi everyone!

So I am interested in getting into sample set creation and such, but I have a few questions before.

First, I currently only have the free edition of the software. I realize that in order to publish sample sets I will need a publisher ID and such, which I must have a licensed copy of Hauptwerk to receive. So, do I need a paid version right away to get started? How limited will I be in just using the free edition until I have money to buy the software?

Second, how much different is the ODF XML format from the CODF XML format? I am familiar with XML syntax and such, and I have messed around with custom organs a bit. So how hard would it be to transition from using the custom organ XML to using "actual" organ XML?

Lastly, what are some suggestions for getting started? As I mentioned earlier, I have played around with custom organs, and I am familiar with XML (I even own a fancy XML editor :D ). So I guess really what I'm asking for is suggestions on recording samples, as this is not something I have done yet.

Thanks in advance!

sasschary
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby tf11972 » Fri May 12, 2017 5:17 am

As I am in the same situation as you, I started from here:

[Link removed by admin.]

Please bear in mind, that the free edition is limited to a polyphony of 256 and does not support surround sample sets. I don't have much experience in XML programming, but using the CODM is good for the beginning. If you have further questions, please write an E-Mail over my website.
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Thomas

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby mdyde » Fri May 12, 2017 5:20 am

Hello sasschary, welcome to the forum, and thanks very much for the interest in Hauptwerk, and in making sample sets.

This is the situation regarding licences and making sample sets in general:

- We don't officially provide any support for the Free Edition (although there's a Free Edition section of the forum where other Hauptwerk users might be able to offer a certain amount of help: http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewforum.php?f=19 . )

- It's technically possible to use the Custom Organ Design Module (CODM) in any edition, including the Free Edition. Its user guide is on the Help menu in Hauptwerk, which also covers its XML format.

- However, for actually creating audio sample files of your own (e.g. for use in a CODM ODF) you would also need the sample set creation guide from us, which we make available privately upon request, but only to licensed users, I'm afraid (since it contains confidential and proprietary information about how Hauptwerk works).

- For creating sample sets we'd strongly recommend using the CODM, rather than attempting to use the 'full ODF format', since the latter is extremely complex, and typically requires a long time to learn and perfect (and often 100+ hours of support from us). Due to the complexity and corresponding support overheads, we can only provide support for the full ODF format to the major sample set producers, I'm afraid. The CODM is specifically designed to be relatively quick and easy for technical people to learn and use, and to be sufficiently flexible for implementing the vast majority of features found on real and virtual organs (including graphical interfaces, etc.).

Thanks again and I hope that helps.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby tf11972 » Fri May 12, 2017 1:11 pm

I apologize for the link. After two sleepless nights I am very tired today and didn't think about the consequences. :oops:

Sorry again and best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tf11972 on Fri May 12, 2017 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thomas

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby mdyde » Fri May 12, 2017 1:35 pm

Thanks, Thomas.

No problem. Hope you get a better night's sleep tonight!
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Martin.

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby sasschary » Sun May 14, 2017 8:29 am

Thank you to both of you for your responses!

Since recording my own files would require a licensed version, do you think it would it be wiser for me to buy the advanced edition or the basic edition? I currently don't have the money to buy the advanced edition, but I might be able to find funds for the basic edition. So would it be better for me to buy the basic version now and upgrade later or to just wait and buy the advanced edition from the beginning?

Thanks again!

Zach
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby sjkartchner » Sun May 14, 2017 3:00 pm

If you have no experience recording organs, you may want to focus on that part of the process first. You will never produce a marketable sample set without starting with high quality samples.
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby dkoschinski » Tue May 16, 2017 5:01 pm

sjkartchner wrote:If you have no experience recording organs, you may want to focus on that part of the process first. You will never produce a marketable sample set without starting with high quality samples.


You are absolutely right !
A newcomer has to invest in high-end recording equipment (microphones, stands, cables, pre-amps, recorders and such). Also it is absolutely necessary to know a lot about audio-engineering like recording techniques, editing, mixing and post processing of the samples. Believe me: this is not an easy task !
I studied audio-engineering on the SAE Institute and after that it took many years of experience by experimenting with organ recordings and sound editing to get decent results (because every recording environment is different and also is every organ). And finally: we have not discussed the complex graphics and software-aspect to manufacture of a sample-set....
It's nice that someone is interested in developing sample-sets, but in the future hopefully there will be no more sample-sets on the market available with despicable quality. We have enough of them already. So only a lot of knowledge / insight and good equipment will contribute to good results !

Kind regards, Danny
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby sasschary » Tue May 16, 2017 5:16 pm

dkoschinski wrote:Also it is absolutely necessary to know a lot about audio-engineering like recording techniques, editing, mixing and post processing of the samples. Believe me: this is not an easy task !


Hi Danny, thanks for your response!

Do you have any suggestions on where I could best start to learn that?

Thanks again!

Zach
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby josq » Wed May 17, 2017 4:06 am

Sounds like you are determined to walk the path of many years ;) So I would suggest that you begin with learning the CODM format. It will cost you a number of evenings to go through the CODM user guide (which you can find in the Hauptwerk help menu) and to edit an organ with existing samples according to your taste.

Next step would be to record one rank of pipes, and to edit the .wav files in such a way that they can be used for Hauptwerk. Then you can try to integrate this rank into one of your CODM organs.

This will probably keep you busy for about a month, and give you a feeling how Hauptwerk works, without having to do large investments.
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby RichardW » Wed May 17, 2017 1:32 pm

josq wrote:... edit the .wav files in such a way that they can be used for Hauptwerk.

From what I have read in this forum over the years, this is the hard part. Ignoring the part about starting transients, looping and reverb tales, when you record a pipe you also record the blower noise. When you play back two pipes you hear two lots of blower noise. When you play back a four note chord using 10 ranks then you will hear 40 lots of blower noise.

There is no easy way to remove the noise and it does seem to be quite a time consuming part of the process.

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby sjkartchner » Wed May 17, 2017 2:33 pm

Richard,

Not only blower noise but any ambient noise, including HVAC (air conditioning and heating), traffic, aircraft, etc. HVAC noise can be particularly pernicious because it is typically a low frequency rumble that is often only heard in the subwoofer range but which can interfere with pedal tones. Thus, as mentioned by Danny, the post processing of recorded samples is a significant yet necessary task.

For organ recordings (I doubt I will ever venture into sample set creation), I have used to remarkable effect the Waves Z-Noise module to eliminate or substantially reduce blower and HVAC noise. This is an example of such a recording where the blower noise was especially significant prior to processing with Z-noise: http://www.matthewwhitehouse.com/gallery-iii-pleiades-visions/.

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby mdyde » Mon May 22, 2017 7:44 am

sasschary wrote:Since recording my own files would require a licensed version, do you think it would it be wiser for me to buy the advanced edition or the basic edition? I currently don't have the money to buy the advanced edition, but I might be able to find funds for the basic edition. So would it be better for me to buy the basic version now and upgrade later or to just wait and buy the advanced edition from the beginning?


Hello sasschary,

Thanks for the continued interest, and my apologies for a delayed reply (I was away last week).

Buying the Basic Edition and then later upgrading to the Advanced Edition works out only $20 U.S. Dollars in total (about 3%) more than buying the Advanced Edition directly. Hence there isn't much difference in total cost ($20) either way.

We could certainly provide the necessary sample set creator's documentation if you bought either edition, and you could potentially use the Basic Edition for creating finished sample sets, provided that you didn't specifically need any of the features of the Advanced Edition for those sample sets (e.g. more than 3 GB of sample RAM, or more than 1024 pipes of polyphony, or the wind supply model, or per-pipe voicing facilities): https://www.hauptwerk.com/learn-more/editions/ . For example, you could use the Basic Edition for creating smaller sample sets (that don't need large amounts of RAM or polyphony) within the CODM, keeping the wind supply model disabled within your CODM organ definition (so that other Advanced Edition users wouldn't get different/unexpected results when using it).
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby sasschary » Mon May 22, 2017 9:06 am

mdyde wrote:We could certainly provide the necessary sample set creator's documentation if you bought either edition, and you could potentially use the Basic Edition for creating finished sample sets, provided that you didn't specifically need any of the features of the Advanced Edition for those sample sets (e.g. more than 3 GB of sample RAM, or more than 1024 pipes of polyphony, or the wind supply model, or per-pipe voicing facilities): https://www.hauptwerk.com/learn-more/editions/ . For example, you could use the Basic Edition for creating smaller sample sets (that don't need large amounts of RAM or polyphony) within the CODM, keeping the wind supply model disabled within your CODM organ definition (so that other Advanced Edition users wouldn't get different/unexpected results when using it).


Thank you again for your responses.

If I were to start with the basic edition, and I did want to use wind modeling, would I be able to use the trial of the advanced edition and deal with the chime to test out wind modelling functions? Or would that then be a violation of what is allowed in a trial version of the software?

Thanks,
Zach
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Re: Questions Before Getting Into Sample Creation

Postby mdyde » Mon May 22, 2017 9:19 am

Hello Zach,

I think that, strictly speaking, using the Advanced Edition's evaluation mode for creating sample sets wouldn't fit within what the licence agreement allows evaluation mode to be used for, but I don't think we'd mind in that specific case (given that you would have a Basic Edition licence anyway, and would be creating sample sets in Hauptwerk format).
Best regards,
Martin.

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