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"Open source" collaborative sound library project

Sampling pipe organs and turning them into something you can play in Hauptwerk.

"Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby elia » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:03 am

Some people make their work available to the community for the pleasure of sharing a passion. Bob Collins ,for example, at http://zionorgan.com/samplesets/samplesets.htm .

It is conceivable to create a collaborative mode of work in order to provide a customized pipe organ based on a sound library that users provide to the community through the records?

I do not want to trivialize the complexity of a demanding task, but creating a new opportunity to share a sound library with a open license.

It 'clear that the work would not be consistent, however, not be excluded the possibility of combining the skills of the participants to fill the gaps.

In the worst case there would be a composite sound library available to interested users.

Elia
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby ggoode_sa » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:06 am

Hi Elia,

There are currently a number of projects going on 'behind the scenes' that will be released under the Creative Commons Non-Commerical license (and the Burea Church sample set is already released under this license). There are also a number of free organs (Nick Appleton's St Stephen's and St Augustine's, the Prudhoe Methodist Church, Joseph Basquin's Stiehr Mockers / Jeuxdorgues2, Gernot's Happy Birthday Organ, etc) that can be used to create composite organs. I did with the the English Cathedral Organ composite (http://www.sa-virtualorgans.co.za/HW3-E ... hedral.htm). So the beginnings of a collaborative sound library project are already here. What we need are volunteers to help with the recording and processing that is required to make a good sample set. Nick Appleton's Noise Reduction application is free for all to use, but it does require knowledge of the dos command line. Lars Palo's new LoopAuditioneer application (http://loopauditioneer.sourceforge.net/userguide.html) makes it really easy to loop the wave files, and Martin's StopPrepare application does an excellent job at tuning a rank. So one does not need to spend anything to get the tools needed to work on a sample set.

I would be willing to be part of a project like this.

Kind regards,
GrahamG
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby elia » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:19 pm

Hi GrahamG,
thanks for the information.
The current version of Hauptwerk produces sound exclusively by playback of samples, which are affected by the swell box and wind models and by voicing parameters. Making a good recording of an organ usually requires experience and expensive equipment, and should not be undertaken lightly.The equipment used to make the original sample recordings has probably the greatest effect on the quality of the end results. Professional equipment will give a very noticeable difference in quality above amateur or 'consumer-grade' equipment. Microphones and pre-amplifiers are of equal importance, and large-diaphragm condenser microphones are usually the best...


Apart technical, aesthetic and legal problems to be taken into serious consideration should be remembered that it is extremely hard work. In any case we can not do without (dry) recordings that will provide the raw material.

There are thousands of churches scattered everywhere, and although many pipe organs are in a precarious state, it is likely that at least some register is in good condition for registration...before a certain death. The work may also have an historical/documentary aspect...

Soon I will be more concrete with some living example ... to discuss in more detail...
Best regards
Elia
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby elia » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:34 pm

I tried to impersonate a passionate person and not a professional ... but with a decent equipment.

You will find a (recently built) italian pipe organ and a mono dry raw recording (DSD recording, 5.6MHz Burr Brown PCM4202 for A/D conversion) at ftp://pipe@ols18.com or ftp://pipe@64.64.131.149 . Use the pipe password. I have placed a cardioid microphone inside the room without ever moving it.

To convert from DSD to PCM use the AudioGate Korg free software at http://www.korguser.net/audiogate/en/index.html .

Theoretical basis on DSD Direct-Stream-Digital vs PCM Pulse-Code-Modulation
http://www.korg.com/services/products/mr/Future_Proof_Recording_Explained.pdf
.

There are only 3 registers :
example1 = TROMMET 8
example2 = POSAUNE 16
example3 = SUBBASS 16
.


To have just an idea of the recordings I made a downsampling (PCM 44.1kHz, 24 bit, AQUA Korg dither) to reduce the download time. No normalization was applied, only raw recordings.
"In many cases, dither processing is an important factor in determining the quality of digital audio. In addition to the "TPDF dithering" commonly used to minimize distortion components, AudioGate also provides the proprietary "KORG AQUA" dithering algorithm developed by KORG to match the response characteristics of human hearing. The perceptual result far surpasses the theoretical S/N ratio based on the quantization bit depth, and has the potential to capture the spatial character of a high-quality master and preserve it even in the down-converted file."



Follows the equipment...

microphone: M-Audio Sputnik http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov06/articles/maudiosputnik.htm
polar pattern : cardioid
microphone screen : T.Bone Mic Screen http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_micscreen.htm
preamplifier: Aphex 207 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr08/articles/aphex207d.htm
cable microphone -> preamp: Vovox Link Direct S100 http://www.vovox.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=30&lang=en
cable preamp -> Analog/Digital Converter: Vovox Link Direct S100
Analog/Digital Converter: Korg MR-1000 http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/korgmr.htm
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby ggoode_sa » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:31 am

Hi Elia,

I have downloaded the three dff files and converted them to PCM wave files. My first impression of these pedal ranks is that the blower noise is nice and low in comparison to the sound of the pipes, so noise reduction will do minimal damage to the authentic sounds of the pipes. The sampling is also of a very high data rate, so processing the samples will also be of high quality.

The free AudioGate from Korg is rather annoying. I'd rather have 32-bit 192khz PCM files to download rather than being forced to tweet for every load and conversion that I do.

What is the plan from here? Do you want these processed into usable samples for Hautpwerk? If so, what license are you going to publish them under? Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial would be something to consider...

Kind regards,
GrahamG
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby elia » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:01 pm

Hi GrahamG,
in the ftp server there is a folder (tmp) for uploading. If you are interested then you can populate it with the authentic data. I will move the folder to the appropriate location (read only).

The starting structure can be "organ register" -> raw_"user" -> ...
Each folder contains a README and LICENSE file with the details of the author.

Example
TROMMET_8 -> raw_elia
POSAUNE_16 -> raw_elia
SUBBASS_16 -> raw_elia

.

Good luck to the project
Regards
Elia



The free AudioGate from Korg is rather annoying. I'd rather have 32-bit 192khz PCM files to download rather than being forced to tweet for every load and conversion that I do.

AudioGate is a free benefit, you can also use free foobar2000 DSDIFF decoder or professional DAW (Pyramix and some SADiE systems). I preferred a higher (>%20) DSD bitrate (= 5,644,800 bits / s) compared to PCM 192KHz/24bit (192000 * 24 = 4608000 bits / s) available on Korg MR-1000. I preferred a more neutral format even if I do not want to enter the minefield (PCM vs DSD).


What is the plan from here?

The speech is simple: without the raw material you do not do anything. It is clear that you must be motivated by altruism and cooperation.

Do you want these processed into usable samples for Hautpwerk?

Yes, there may also be many well documented results.

If so, what license are you going to publish them under? Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial would be something to consider...

The license is a minor issue and each person can decide what to do. It is clear that you must be motivated by altruism and cooperation.
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby Siegfried » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:22 pm

Hi, elia.

Thank you for your work first of all. These samples are clear and usable.

Concerning your idea...

As I understand you want to create a library of raw pipe data recorded dry? So after they can be processed to pipe ranks and used in compound organs just like that electronic organs for which you can choose different "sets"?

If I remember well MDA had such set - don't know where it's now. Father Willis set of Silver Octopus is built under same principles, they are using ranks from different organs of Henry Willis. And they are planning something more common, like an organ constructor.

Concerning samples.

They should be distributed under some sort of license, Graham is right. It's important because even some samplemakers will contribute if project will become popular.

As for me I'd like to help, but I can help only in postprocessing - denoising and looping. May be someday I'll record pair of Yalta organs (especially that in Livadia Organ Palace) but it will be later. Anyway it should be interesting project.
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Re: "Open source" collaborative sound library project

Postby elia » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:13 pm

Hi SiegFried,

As I understand you want to create a library of raw pipe data recorded dry? So after they can be processed to pipe ranks and used in compound organs just like that electronic organs for which you can choose different "sets"?

Exactly, there is no alternative. In addition, the dry and monophonic recordings are easier to do. The complications come later ...
There are two ways to use dry sounds (in a typical multichannel audio system):
- Use real acoustics (church, auditorium, ...)
- Use virtual (surround) acoustics (VSL MIR PRO, ...) http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/497/1687/2002/1691.htm

You can start imitating a traditional pipe organ but will also be more interesting to open new possibilities with new sounds taken from other sources (glass register, percussion register, synthetic register, ...). All these sounds may have different licenses including commercial.

If I remember well MDA had such set - don't know where it's now. Father Willis set of Silver Octopus is built under same principles, they are using ranks from different organs of Henry Willis. And they are planning something more common, like an organ constructor.

Even "http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/" is very active. The commercial offer is interested in wet sampled pipe organs and in some cases there is also a dry variant.

Concerning samples.

They should be distributed under some sort of license, Graham is right. It's important because even some samplemakers will contribute if project will become popular.

I do not want to appear as the owner. The interest of the community is more important. A single license would be more simple. Who want to have more protection may adopt a more restrictive license to protect their intellectual work. At a minimum it would be necessary to use these sounds in a public context.
To ensure the commercial interests you can also get this (hypothetical):
- Encrypt the data with the Hauptwerk hardware protection mechanism
- Purchase a license to use the finished encrypted product (even individual organ registers)
- Use the raw unencrypted sounds is less realistic but possible

As for me I'd like to help, but I can help only in postprocessing - denoising and looping. May be someday I'll record pair of Yalta organs (especially that in Livadia Organ Palace) but it will be later. Anyway it should be interesting project.

You are welcome. Unfortunately I did not make a long recording to background noise. You can put your work in the tmp folder with details on repeatability and license that you want to adopt ... Even a small contribution can be appreciated and followed by other people.
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