Incredible commerce ...

"HMaier (11/29/11)
Dear "Hoofdwerk",
I really appreciate your excellent performances and really admire the ability, to record one piece after another and your extremely large repertoire (when do you sleep? ), but for me it's a bit unfair against other publishers, to flood the forum with so much demos (actually 16 pieces in two days)
For me it has a little bit the taste of pushing certain sample sets, sorry.

Hoofdwerk (11/29/11)
That is not my intention. I'm sorry to create that impression, and I will be more careful about that. I have had this set for several weeks, so I was able to record pieces on it over time. This is in fact the last set I had, so I'm happy to go away.

HMaier (11/29/11)
Not to be misunderstood, I don't have the intention, to drive you out! I'm a big admirer of your playing!
You'll know the problem from Google etc., the first visible entries have the biggest attention ...

giwro (11/29/11)
I too have enjoyed hearing this organ, and trying to figure out what it might be... I will admit that it *does* seem a bit over the top to have posted so many pieces all at once (I know you are trying to do this "figure it out" contest, I get that) Perhaps in the future it might be better to post a piece or so a day with links to SP for the contest... I know there are no formal rules on number of posts, but it does make it hard for other posts to be seen... I'm trying to raise awareness of my latest set also (the Wangerin) and my posts have been quickly buried. I know this forum is not here primarily for sample producers to showcase their latest, so I try to limit it to 1 or 2 posts at a time in deference to everyone else.

Hoofdwerk (11/29/11)
Message received, and understood. My apologies to you as well as anyone else I've irritated. I wanted to get the pieces into the ears of those guessing, and I overlooked the perception and issues that would cause. Obvious now, in hindsight. It won't occur again.

And for the record, the guessing game is my idea. I am not affiliated in any official capacity with any sample set producer. I would like to see "all boats rise" in the HW world. I have been quite kindly given sample sets to test and make demos with, but I would do the same for others."

(29.11.2011/21.46h)

http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/music/6061

http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/user/1125 (enjoy!)


Best regards

Matthias

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www.Hauptwerkorgel.de
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Your contribution fits perfectly into the culture of insinuations you have been practising for so long.
You really understand nothing of the intent of my posting. It's not about a producer here to prefer, but to give everyone a fair chance, to be visible in the forum. By this "incredible commerce" I fear, we'll all become millionaires, cheers!

Well, it could sound a bit like Apple releases of the new Ipod, Iphone, Ipad or so on ; something to "create the event", a bit artificially. The release of a excellent new sampleset, as this one looks, is for us Hauptwerkers an event in itself : no need to do more. Would'nt it be simpler and more natural to have a message from producer X saying "I am going to release a sampleset of organ Y in the next few days. Here is the link for some demos on my website" ? Excitement among the afficionados would grow the the same way.
As far as I am concerned, to know that an identified organ - Naumburg in that case if it is really Naumburg - is going to be playable at home would make me dream more than demos of a still unknown organ, although these demos are really played beyond praise.

Speaking as a user (as opposed to creator/maintainer) of CBCH and nothing more, I think it's unfortunate that enthusiastic users would need to throttle their uploads in order to defer to other users. Having said that, I do understand the impact of the "front-page phenomenon". Speaking as creator/maintainer, please understand that it's very difficult to avoid the "front-page phenomenon" from a development standpoint. The dashboard was an attempt to minimize this effect, but as you can see, even that's not perfect. The fact that I link to CBCH from YouTube, Facebook, etc. has caused me to monopolize "Most Popular" for some time now, though it looks like a couple of users have accumulated enough views to get into the top 5.

I think playlists are the best way to have your cake and eat it too. The killer feature I've been meaning to get it is being able to embed your CBCH playlists onto other sites. This way sample set creators (or anyone else) could promote their uploads without worrying about new uploads pushing theirs down the list. Is there interest in this? If there is, I will try to make some time to get this done sooner.

Hi Rob!

First--let me say that I very much appreciate your contributions to CCH as a performing artist.

Second--let me say that I very much appreciate your contributions to CCH as a developer. In both roles you're providing a great benefit to all of us.

Third--if one thinks that a large number of pieces uploaded to CCH puts a sound library vendor at a competitive disadvantage, perhaps the best way forward is to...compete. Post more pieces--and recognize that other competitors will respond by posting more pieces. Yes--it will mean that people like me (I typically post something every three weeks or so) get lost in the deluge--but the end result is that we all get to enjoy more music.

I'll start a new thread about playlists, rather than take this thread off onto a tangent.

[B. Milan]

[Topic moved]

As an Enthusiastic User... I agree with the criticism I received on CCH as quoted above in the absence of a good way to prevent single contributions from being lost. I made a mistake in posting too many pieces in too short a time that the community reacted to as a breech of unwritten but clear-by-example protocol. I just didn't think it through enough and was excited about the game. It may be possible to move the posts to another site as Patrick wisely suggests (stay tuned), but even if it is too late to move things I won't make the mistake again.

Those who called me on poor judgment simply said what was true.

To move forward: Is there any way to make CCH more of a threaded conversation model that allows posting either playlists or single submissions into the cycle of contributions? Since they are separate tabs, Playlists seem underused. If combined in one queue, this game of mine could be a single entry in a list rather than many, and if it "popped" to the top when I made a new contribution to it, it would remain one line in the list but still show up as newly changed. Single contributions would behave just as they do now. Then the Goldberg variations, or a themed contest, or any manner of things could exist side-by-side with single contributions, and it would be less likely for anyone to feel swamped by something like what I just did.

Not sure what's possible within the CCH software...

Switching topics:

As for commerce, I believe it is in the interest of all in the HW world to have a thriving, growing ecosystem to support it. No one will get "rich" by selling sample sets that are so labor-intensive to create to such as small target market as we HW users make up. And organists, as a group, are not well paid. I believe that all the vendors involved in HW are doing what they do in part (probably large part) for a labor of love of the organ. It can't be money...

As a HW user (and no more), I think CCH provides a valuable service to me in announcing and demoing sample sets from all the providers. It also teaches me, entertains me, and allows me to share some love of overlooked repertoire with others. The commercial use I see is appropriate in my view, and not abused.

I've made some investments in the hardware and software to make this small miracle called HW work. I'd like to see HW not only continue, but thrive. I need all the sample set producers to continue to do their work for all of us (competition is good). I need MDA to continue to evolve and maintain HW. I need console providers and consultants to be around to help me now and then. If there is no way to make any money doing these activities, no one will do them except a rare volunteer with time and money to spare. That doesn't sound like a sustainable, healthy future for HW.

I would propose we all focus on bringing more people into the HW fold. Everyone wins with more HW users, including other HW users. If each of us convinced just one more person to join us, we'd double in size.

Sorry for the dust-up. Last thing I intended was to make people upset.

Erik

Personally, I'd like to hear more demos with OrganArt sets, rather than less demos from the others.

Third--if one thinks that a large number of pieces uploaded to CCH puts a sound library vendor at a competitive disadvantage, perhaps the best way forward is to...compete. Post more pieces--and recognize that other competitors will respond by posting more pieces. Yes--it will mean that people like me (I typically post something every three weeks or so) get lost in the deluge--but the end result is that we all get to enjoy more music.

+1

So far the only complaints about this have come from sample set producers. But I think CCH is mainly for the listeners. Only if they start to complain, it is time to do something about this. For sample set producers, they just have to find a better way to promote their work, I am afraid. That is how competition works. Complaining about this, sounds a bit childish, IMHO.

But indeed, as a user I could do with a better way to find new uploads. Maybe the dashboard page could have the following lists:

10 last users who uploaded a new recording
10 last sample sets used for a new recording
10 last composers of whom a piece was recorded

These lists then link to pages with all recordings for the respective user/sample set/composer. In addition to that, I think a way to browse through sorted lists of all users/sample sets/composers would also be very helpful.

In this way listeners can easily find what they like and every uploader/producer gets an even chance.

EXCELLENT idea! That way, I do not have to browse through pages and pages to find music I like / want to listen to. "top 10" lists based on user / sample set / composers is a great idea.

This phenomenon is not unknown on the 'net. A large Norwegian trading site, http://www.finn.no, has a dedicated section for brand new boats - but the resellers keep listing them in the used boat section.
This means that the used boat section is flooded with boats that aren't of any interest for me if I want to buy a used boat. At the same time, I've spotted quite a few bargains and very interesting boats. Ultimately, guiding me towards the type of boat I want.

If a sample set producer is pushing recordings, fine by me. A top 10 list or 4 will fix that "problem".

THE ONLY THING I find annoying is this "mystery sample set coming to a website near you soon" and links to "the Hauptwerk forum thread" - without the actual link.

Name the sample set, or do not post the piece. CCH shouldn't become a "wanna hear what you can't have - yet?" sort of place. Because if you think about it - is that the correct way to recruit future Hauptwerkians? Not telling what it actually is?

So my 2 dimes would be:

- make top 5 or top 10 lists as mentioned above to prevent flooding
- Prevent uploading if the sample set isn't in the list. If it isn't public, I don't need to know about it.

Capiche?

if one thinks that a large number of pieces uploaded to CCH puts a sound library vendor at a competitive disadvantage, perhaps the best way forward is to...compete. Post more pieces--and recognize that other competitors will respond by posting more pieces. Yes--it will mean that people like me (I typically post something every three weeks or so) get lost in the deluge--but the end result is that we all get to enjoy more music.

I fully agree with this!

Hello Everyone,

First of all, thanks for all of your contributions to Contrebombarde.com. We just passed 6000 uploads recently. Great job everyone. Each upload is one more inspirational moment that has the potential to create another believer in virtual pipe organs and, by extension, real pipe organs.

That potential is what we saw in the site and why we became involved. The industry, as a whole, is on the decline. We saw how people react to Hauptwerk and the sample sets; how they inspire people to re-ignite a dormant love for the instrument. This can only do good things for Hauptwerk and for the future of the pipe organ.

So, there are no plans to limit the number of daily upload per user. Who knows which piece is going to inspire someone. Note that, if you're worried about large volume uploads over a few days, those too slip off the front page after a couple of days too. Contrebombarde really is equal opportunity that way.

The real answer is to upload lots of your own content as a few here have suggested.

We also will be keeping the ability to add new organ names. Sample set makers are not always proactive in letting us know what is coming out and when. So, we want people to be able to upload in cases where the set name is not yet in the drop down list.

Some of the other tools at your disposal are:

Subscription services - subscribe to your favorite sample set maker or artist so you don't miss an upload. There are RSS feeds for the same thing if your browser supports those.
Create playlists of your favorite material
Visit often.
Encourage artist users to upload more of what you like by leaving positive feedback
Use the Advanced search function to find what you like

Also, Rob implemented the cool "Shuffle" button for people who want to discover forgotten pieces. It will randomly select 20 pieces for a playlist. Personally, I think it's one of the undiscovered treasures of the site. With 6000 uploads there is lots to get lost on the site and therefore lots to re-discover.

Upgrades to the site are tough. Rob often graciously donates his time to the site as a labour of love. From time to time I can wrestle some budget away from other things for upgrades. However, Contrebombarde.com is at the point where it really needs almost a full time developer involved in order to move things forward.

The site is ostensibly a non-profit site. Hiring someone in that capacity is not really possible. I don't really want to see it go to a paid site nor obscenely plastered with ads in order to subsidize development.

We do welcome your suggestions on how to improve the site. That's really valuable to us. So, thank you for those.

The dashboard is admittedly in need of a healthy upgrade. No doubt about that.. There are a number of other challenging, feature projects that also need attention. Most of them will require a substantial time commitment. So, we're looking at ways to accomplish those.

Once again, thank you all for making Contrebombarde.com an inspiration to a whole lot of people.

Darryl

Heck, our part is easy by comparison - THANK YOU for creating, maintaining, and enhancing CCH for all of us!

It just wouldn't be the same without it.

Erik

Guess the TTD and the TTI lists are long. (Things To Do and Things To Ignore)

BTW. To respond to one of Gerrit's points:

I just realized that the dashboard already has the ability to show more than the top 5 pieces. You only have to click on the title "Most Popular" and the browse page will come up in order of most popular to the newest.

We only started with 5 originally for space reasons.

We'll look at implementing some newer, more exciting dashboard features on our next site upgrade.

Darryl