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HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

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SKresge

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HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 am

Our church has been doing live streaming. It now has become evident that we will be doing this for quite a while, and they want to improve the sound on the stream. They are planning to run the PA system of mics directly and asked me to do the same with the organ.

We currently have a MOTU 16A for multi-channel output using 16 monitors and 2 subwoofers using the TOSLINK. We will be running OBS Studio on a MacBook laptop, and the organ is running on a Mac Pro. They will be using a Behringer Xenyx Q802USB Mixer with USB as the interface with the camera setup.

My question is how to run a stereo stream out to the live feed via Behringer mixer while still maintaining the multi-channel live experience when we eventually start back up? Do we run an audio line out of the audio/headphone output of the organ computer to the mixer that will combine the PA system that will feed into the stream? Sort of like if I wanted to be able to have headphones and a multi-channel at the same time? Organist/musician here, not a sound expert . . .

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Scott
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micdev

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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:20 am

Good morning,

One problem you're having is that you don't have don't any free output on your audio interface, as a matter of fact you have 18 speakers connected to 16 outputs, so I guess that your 2 subs are feeding 2 monitors) and this group of 4 speakers (2 subs + 2 monitors connected to the sub Thru out) is an AuxMix (in Hauptwerk 4 language)

So the outputs (stereo stream) for the 2 subs (and its attached monitors) carry a mix of your 14 monitor. Your audio/tv technician should be able to feed the mixer with these outputs while also feeding the subs.

You can't use the built-in audio interface since you're using your MOTU (and the MOTU has no headphones jack and no free outputs).
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SKresge

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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 7:58 am

micdev wrote:One problem you're having is that you don't have don't any free output on your audio interface, as a matter of fact you have 18 speakers connected to 16 outputs, so I guess that your 2 subs are feeding 2 monitors) and this group of 4 speakers (2 subs + 2 monitors connected to the sub Thru out) is an AuxMix (in Hauptwerk 4 language)


Actually, per a recommendation from this forum, I acquired a TOSLINK connector and have the 2 subs connected via that. A sound guy did a split off of that to feed the two subs. The 16 channels are used for 16 monitors, 8 in the front of the church with the great, swell, and pedal and 8 in the back with choir and solo divisions.

So I don't think I have a group of 4 speakers you referenced. I originally set up the subs as a mix down from the 16 channels.

micdev wrote:Your audio/tv technician should be able to feed the mixer with these outputs while also feeding the subs.


So since the subs are just a mix down, this would not work, would it? And would I be completely out of options??

Scott
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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 8:11 am

Have you considered using an alternative configuration for this?

You could use backup / restore to copy the configuration for the organ to an alternative, and adjust the preset to use only the output you choose as the stereo output. You may need to reassign the ranks In the alternative configuration but your midi settings etc would be available. You may need to replug a stereo pair on the motu to connect to the mixer for the broadcast or use the built in audio on the MAC.

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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 8:15 am

Thanks Iain,

But right now with no one present that might be an option. But have to plan for a 'hybrid' type service eventually where we will have parishioners in the church and still have them at home viewing at the same time. So unplugging will not be an option, need the multi-channel set up to remain as is.

Looks like I am out of options then.

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micdev

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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 9:06 am

Hi,

Since your subs is a mix of the 16 channels, then this is perfect. Use that feed (using splitter, additional mixer) to send audio to your broadcast and the sub; at the same time you will have sound in your church.
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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 9:12 am

We tried both a direct audio link from the organ and then picking up the organ sound with a dedicated pair of high end stereo mics. The result was agreed that the pick up via the mics which included the room acoustic was the better overall.This technique of "air mixing/blending" sounded very natural. Another advantage of these organ mics is being able to control their dynamics with separate compressor/limiter settings so as to not over modulate the stream. We can control the pickup pattern of the mics we use. This was useful in minimizing the sound of a slightly noisy air handler.

It took a little experimentation to find the best position(s) for these organ mics but that was not too difficult. The audio engineer can control the stereo separation as well. The direct feed was more electronic sounding and not as pleasing. Separate ambient mics were normally used for the choir and congregation. That shouldn't be a consideration right now as group singing (choir and or congregation) will not be happening per state regulations/suggestions.

No need to make it more difficult than necessary. It proved to be more difficult to get a proper balance using the direct connection approach. esp concerning the low end bass. Consider if you needed a stereo streaming feed of a real pipe organ. Picking up the sound of the grand piano was another consideration. Our present webcasts include solo instruments, but no vocals.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 1:05 pm

engrssc wrote:We tried both a direct audio link from the organ and then picking up the organ sound with a dedicated pair of high end stereo mics. The result was agreed that the pick up via the mics which included the room acoustic was the better overall.This technique of "air mixing/blending" sounded very natural. Another advantage of these organ mics is being able to control their dynamics with separate compressor/limiter settings so as to not over modulate the stream. We can control the pickup pattern of the mics we use. This was useful in minimizing the sound of a slightly noisy air handler.

It took a little experimentation to find the best position(s) for these organ mics but that was not too difficult. The audio engineer can control the stereo separation as well. The direct feed was more electronic sounding and not as pleasing. Separate ambient mics were normally used for the choir and congregation. That shouldn't be a consideration right now as group singing (choir and or congregation) will not be happening per state regulations/suggestions.

No need to make it more difficult than necessary. It proved to be more difficult to get a proper balance using the direct connection approach. esp concerning the low end bass. Consider if you needed a stereo streaming feed of a real pipe organ. Picking up the sound of the grand piano was another consideration. Our present webcasts include solo instruments, but no vocals.

Rgds,
Ed



Thanks Ed, that was spot on and timely.

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engrssc

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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 2:14 pm

Thanks, Thomas. Probably well known that I generally approach tech issues with more of a consideration toward the
elaborate/difficult method. That's what I did initially in the above situation. OTOH, our chief audio engineer, and his assistant came up with the idea of using mics. While our audio guy is well seasoned in audio, his assistant is a young college gal who is a great musician and enjoys tech stuff. Together, they make a really good team. So I bow to the KISS principle in this case. I do emphasize the need for using good quality mics, in our case, we use shock mounted AKG 414's. While there are many other quality mics as well, not good are those "close talking" mics that are meant to be used by a soloist for instance.

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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 6:03 pm

engrssc wrote:We tried both a direct audio link from the organ and then picking up the organ sound with a dedicated pair of high end stereo mics. The result was agreed that the pick up via the mics which included the room acoustic was the better overall.This technique of "air mixing/blending" sounded very natural. Another advantage of these organ mics is being able to control their dynamics with separate compressor/limiter settings so as to not over modulate the stream. We can control the pickup pattern of the mics we use. This was useful in minimizing the sound of a slightly noisy air handler.

It took a little experimentation to find the best position(s) for these organ mics but that was not too difficult. The audio engineer can control the stereo separation as well. The direct feed was more electronic sounding and not as pleasing. Separate ambient mics were normally used for the choir and congregation. That shouldn't be a consideration right now as group singing (choir and or congregation) will not be happening per state regulations/suggestions.

No need to make it more difficult than necessary. It proved to be more difficult to get a proper balance using the direct connection approach. esp concerning the low end bass. Consider if you needed a stereo streaming feed of a real pipe organ. Picking up the sound of the grand piano was another consideration. Our present webcasts include solo instruments, but no vocals.

Rgds,
Ed


Absolutely, Ed. We do the same thing. In my case, a pair of AT4022's records EVERYTHING during a service. No need to complicate things.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostTue Jun 30, 2020 6:23 pm

We stream (music) in stereo. OBS, seems okay, not sure exactly what YouTube does with audio. Organ audio is fairly complex in itself. No need to add to that situation. We have 24+ organ channels and Drew has many more. But when they mix together in the room (space) a certain blending takes place which is much better than anything that can be done electronically.

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Ed
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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostWed Jul 01, 2020 9:09 pm

engrssc wrote:We stream (music) in stereo. OBS, seems okay, not sure exactly what YouTube does with audio. Organ audio is fairly complex in itself. No need to add to that situation. We have 24+ organ channels and Drew has many more. But when they mix together in the room (space) a certain blending takes place which is much better than anything that can be done electronically.

Rgds,
Ed


Agreed. We (I) also use OBS - and I'm not all that familiar with video streaming - but ours turns out quite well - most of the time - assuming I have the gains set correctly. YouTube does compress the audio - however, if you add &fmt=18 to the end of the URL, it will play in original quality.

I use a Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD USB Audio Interface for the mics and a BlackMagic ATEM Mini for the cameras.
Drew A. Worthen
Master of Music in Composition - Butler University
http://www.drewworthen.com
Director of Music & Website Admin - Greenwood UMC
http://www.greenwoodumc.org
Field Engineer - Diversified (Formerly Sensory Technologies)
http://www.sensorytechnologies.com
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Re: HW to Live Stream while maintaining Multi-Channel Setup

PostWed Jul 01, 2020 10:22 pm

The info in this video (below) may be just a little"over the top" as far as this thread is concerned but is pretty much the way we do audio in our church. So consider it to be for the purpose of information. In our church, we use two of these audio boards. One for the auditorium sound mix, and the other for the streaming mix which requires two audio operators. Both boards access the same sources. Originally we only took a feed from the auditorium board to feed the stream However this compromised the streaming audio to some extent because the requirements for sound reinforcement was different from that which was sent to the home viewer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0bZ9Pzdj7A&feature=youtu.be

Rgds,
Ed

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