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latency

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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atugores

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latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 11:32 am

Hello, I have a Roland/rodger C-330 with midi, a Macbook Pro i7, 16 g ram and Apogee Duet as audio interface with an M-Audio midisport 2x2, midi interface.
With all sep up the Default organ that comes with it, its really unplayable due to a lot of latency, I tried to lower from 1024 to 512 and there is a little bit of improvement but still unplayable. Can anybody tell me what happens or what to do, I would like to go to Hauptwerk but this put me away from it as much as I tried. thank you.
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mdyde

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Re: latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 11:39 am

Hello atugores,

Thanks very much for the interest in Hauptwerk, and sorry to hear that you're having such an issue with latency.

If you temporarily change the audio device setting in Hauptwerk to use the Mac's built-in output, does that address the latency?

How about if you click on the keys on the screen, rather than playing them via MIDI?

(The intention is to try to determine which device is causing the issue.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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atugores

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Re: latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 12:14 pm

thank you Martin I have tried this and there is a significant reduction of latency, but there is still enough to make some fast passages quite unplayable, but we improve, lets see, that means that apogee duet is not as good as it is suppose to be, I know there is better audio interfaces like RME but they are out of my budget, could the midisport midi interface bring the latency that is remaining?, thanks one more time, by the way i'm leaving in Mallorca Island (spain) poor help in there.
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mdyde

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Re: latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 12:21 pm

Hello atugores,

Using the Mac's built-in output, can you still hear the latency if clicking on the keys on the St. Anne's virtual console screen? (That would help to determine whether the problem is due to a MIDI interface/device.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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atugores

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Re: latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 12:31 pm

No I can't hear the latency clicking on the keys on the St. Anne's virtual console screen, I try to change with another midi cable or interface to see what happens but I would say, things have improved a 75% thanks to your help, what kind of audio interfaces people around uses with hauptwerk?. thank you very much your suggestion have been very helpful.
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mdyde

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Re: latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 12:50 pm

Thanks, atugores.

I wouldn't expect an M-Audio MIDISPORT 2x2 to introduce a significant amount (more than perhaps 2-3 milliseconds) of latency.

Do you have the latest driver installed for it? The latest one appears to be v3.5.3 (if you search for OS X 10.10):

http://www.m-audio.com/support/drivers-search

What version of OS X are you using? Do you have all current OS X updates applied?

Do you have access to a different MIDI keyboard that you could try connecting up temporarily, just to try to determine whether the issue is due to the MIDI interface, or to your Roland/Rodgers organ?

(Also, make sure that you're using the current version of Hauptwerk for good measure, i.e. v4.2.1, which you can check via Hauptwerk's 'About' screen.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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atugores

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Re: latency

PostWed Aug 12, 2015 1:04 pm

I have drivers 3.5.3, OX 10.10.4 and Haupwerk 4.2.1
And no I do not have another keyboard to try, sorry
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mdyde

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Re: latency

PostThu Aug 13, 2015 5:47 am

Hello atugores,

That all sounds fine in itself. I don't currently have a MIDISPORT interface myself, but I know that quite a few Hauptwerk users do use them successfully (not sure whether any are using Macs specifically), so I wouldn't have expected any problems with it. (I did have a pre-Anniversary Edition MIDISPORT 4x4 some years ago, which performed well at the time, but of course operating system platforms and drivers have changed since then, and the current Anniversary Edition probably has some internal differences.)

The MIDI interfaces that I have here, and use with OS X 10.10.4 are:

- MOTU Microlite ( http://www.motu.com/products/midi/lite ).

- RME Fireface UFX audio/MIDI interface ( http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/fireface_ufx.php ).

- E-MU Xmidi 1x1 Tab ( http://www.creative.com/emu/products/product.aspx?pid=19089 ).

They all work well for me, and I haven't noticed any significant additional latency with them (although I haven't specifically measured it).

Do you perhaps have access to a different MIDI interface you could try (or borrow), to attempt to determine whether the excessive latency is being caused by the MIDISPORT, or by your Rodgers/Roland organ?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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k2bhm

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Re: latency

PostThu Aug 13, 2015 3:03 pm

If I can add a little to this subject, I am also using a Macbook pro at the present time and a Midisport 2x2 interface for pedals and a single swell pedal. I do have a very little bit of latency with the Swell pedal but absolutely none with the pedals (midified with the Midiboutique kit). My 2 Alesis keyboards have USB output so no need for another Midi interface. Zero latency on Keyboards.
I do not use an audio interface, just taking the audio output from the 3.5mm jack in the Macbook to a Headbox headphone amp (to AKG701s) and on to a Yamaha amp and surround sound speakers and Subwoofer.
Not sure if any of the above helps, but there you are anyway!
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TheOrganDoc

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Re: latency

PostFri Aug 14, 2015 12:34 pm

If it's only your Swell Pedal, that exhibits Latency,
That is quite normal on most all Pipe Organs.
That delay is incorporated into most sample sets, in order to
provide the same feel as the Original Pipe Organ Had ! :roll:
Mel
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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k2bhm

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Re: latency

PostFri Aug 14, 2015 2:39 pm

Thanks, Mel! Always good to hear someone tell you you're normal!
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abaymajr

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Re: latency

PostFri Aug 14, 2015 2:40 pm

atugores wrote:Hello, I have a Roland/rodger C-330 with midi


At least for the Roland C330, one of the consoles I connect to the Hauptwerk is a C380, which is almost the same hardware of the C330. I experience negligible latency with different MIDI and audio interfaces, from a simple Roland UM-ONE Mk2 USB-MIDI cable to the MIDI in/out of an Steinberg UR-22. As for the audio interface, no huge latency with two different onboard sound devices (using ASIO4ALL) and the UR-22 audio output.
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atugores

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Re: latency

PostTue Aug 18, 2015 6:49 am

Thank to all of you, those past day I have done some more investigation on the latency problem with my Roland C-330 and everything end with similar results, using the MIDISPORT 2x2 and the macbook Pro, when looking in the window performance and midi, where it say the latency you are going to have, with 1024 selected it give a reading of 24 milliseconds, unplayable, only lowering well below 512 returns 9 milliseconds. So I do not know what to do, with those results it is very hard to spend the money on Hauptwerk, it may be an answer for that, but I do not know where is that answer.
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mdyde

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Re: latency

PostTue Aug 18, 2015 7:19 am

Hello Atugores,

The latency that Hauptwerk reports on its Audio, MIDI and Performance large control panel (e.g. 23 milliseconds with your chosen buffer size of 1024) is the latency that the audio driver reports. That doesn't take into account any additional MIDI latency that might exist.

Usually (with most MIDI interfaces and MIDI keyboards/consoles), the additional MIDI latency will be only a very small number of milliseconds (e.g. 2-3 ms in total). However, Hauptwerk has no means by which to determine that (you would need specialist hardware for doing so).

Hence the actual total amount of latency might be higher than the audio latency that Hauptwerk reports if you play via MIDI. However, if you click on keys on the screen then no additional MIDI latency will be present, so it gives you a means to hear the audio latency (23 ms) alone, in order to try to determine whether the 'problematic' latency is due to MIDI or audio.

A latency of 23 ms (for the default audio buffer size of 1024) is equivalent to playing a real pipe organ in which the pipework is only about 7.8 metres away from you (since sound travels at about 340 metres/second). Many real organs have pipework at least that far away, so most people consider that to be a problem (or even noticeable).

You can of course also choose a lower buffer size. For example, you could set the buffer size to 256, which would usually give you an audio latency (with the St. Anne's sample set, which uses a sample rate of 44.1 kHz) of about 6 milliseconds. That's equivalent to playing a real pipe organ in which the pipework is about 2 metres from you. Even the smallest real tracker organ is unlikely to have less latency than that.

Are you sure that you find that unplayable? With the Mac's built-in audio output selected in Hauptwerk, and with Hauptwerk's buffer size setting set to 256 you really shouldn't be able to hear any significant unnatural latency (i.e. any more than a real tracker organ).

With those settings, do you hear additional latency when you play by press the MIDI keys on your Roland/Rodgers organ, compared to clicking on the virtual keys on the screen? If so, then somehow you must have some source of excessive MIDI latency.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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atugores

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Re: latency

PostTue Aug 18, 2015 12:20 pm

I agree with all you said, the manuals do not have a noticeable latency at 512 or less, and very little at 1024 (using headphones and the audio from the computer) but were most retard is found is with the main pedal which response is very retarded in respect to play a key on the manual at the same time, even with less that 512, unfortunately I do not have another midi interface by now to try. I have to order one from abroad (this is an island).
I play some time a big organ in a church, an organ from 1760, and I do not notice the latency, it is absolutely playable, you can see the organ in this picture.

Image
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