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Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...

Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby damuehlbauer » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:23 pm

I am wondering if anyone has found a reasonably priced 61-key midi keyboard that has second touch? It appears that these units call it 'aftertouch' but I assume it performs in the same manner as the theatre organ second touch. Any suggestions?
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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby TheOrganDoc » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:09 pm

As far as I know After-touch is a single output caused by touching ANY Key firmly but
("Second touch" is a separate output from every key and any key, when any of them are depressed firmly ! ) ,
you would have to get a real Theater organ Keyboard and Midify Both sets of keys ! ! ! :twisted:
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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby organtechnology » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:17 pm

First aftertouch is NOT second touch. After touch affects all of the notes on a channel. Second touch only affects those notes which have the second touch switch activated. Note velocity has been used as a pseudo second touch but is still lacking. Probably because the velocity is derived from how the key is struck and not after pressure.

Secondly they are by their very nature $$$$$$. I think the least expensive I have seen is around $2000 USD.
The Wurlitzer version of second touch manuals are just under $4000.00. But if you have Wurlitzer manuals they can be converted for ~$750.00 each.

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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby mdyde » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:40 am

Hello David,

If any given virtual theatre organ keyboard supports second-touch then Hauptwerk will allow you to trigger it using either:

1. Real theatre organ keyboard 2nd touch key contacts, or:
2. MIDI polyphonic (key) aftertouch exceeding a chosen threshold, or:
3. MIDI note velocity exceeding a chosen threshold, or:
4. MIDI channel aftertouch exceeding a chosen threshold.

... with 1 being the most desirable for theatre organ playing, and 4 being the least (but still usable for some purposes).

It should auto-detect those automatically (automatically picking the 'best' of those trigger types that was heard from your hardware during auto-detection), but you can also configure it manually by right-clicking on the relevant virtual keyboard (e.g. the Accompaniment), selecting 'Adjust MIDI/trigger settings manually ...', and configuring the 2nd touch settings near the bottom of the right-hand settings pane.

Real theatre organ 2nd touch keys have two indepdendent sets of key contacts. For any given key, the second set are triggered (for that key only) only as you press the key down further than normal.

There are actually two types of MIDI aftertouch: channel aftertouch, and polyphonic/key aftertouch. Channel aftertouch is by far the most common, but it affects all pressed keys equally, so you can't use it to play a melody on the 2nd touch ranks whilst also holding down a (non-2nd touch) chord on the same keyboard, for example. Key/polyhonic aftertouch allows aftertouch to be on/off independently for each key.

Hence real theatre organ 2nd touch keyboards, or polyphonic/key aftertouch are much more desirable, but they're only found on specialist, and typically very expensive, keyboards.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby ArnoldOrgans » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:17 pm

Our current version of 2nd touch is $1595. It replaces the traditional Fatar solid metal key bushing holders with 2nd touch springs modified to hold the bushings. The contacts are also modified. This gives the full key stoke activating 1st contacts at half stroke. The second set of contacts activate half way through the additional 2nd touch key stroke. They are special order. The price is much higher than our $475 for standard Fatar keyboards because of the required parts and labor.
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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:34 am

Very interesting. Trying to picture the setup.

If I'm understanding correctly, the second touch contacts actuate 3/4 way thru the entire stroke, in other words 1/4 from the bottom? Do you have an approx measurement of the extra force needed to overcome the 2T springs?

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby Erzahler » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:46 pm

I'm not needing second touch but wonder what good keyboards are available at a budget price other than Berhringer and other ones that are stripped out of cases and just do the job.
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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby schultzpo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:23 am

According to the "Theatre Organ Shop Notes" the force should be 567g to 680g (20 to 24oz). Key depth First Touch 11/32", Second Touch 5/32".
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Re: Midi keyboards with Second Touch but not $$$$$$

Postby ArnoldOrgans » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:25 pm

engrssc wrote: Do you have an approx measurement of the extra force needed to overcome the 2T springs?

Rgds,
Ed


We have never taken a measurement but the springs are for Barton organs and the placement is similar.
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