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Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...

Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby hvandyk » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:05 pm

I have tried everything possible and even read, and followed, the instructions on the another "Lighted Stop" posting in this forum but am unable to get a midi signal to go from the computer to the physical stop. When using the physical stop, the light comes on and off as appropriate and the virtual stop follows along. So far so good. But when using the combination system on Hauptwerk (home made console with Artisan midi boards for the keyboards and their lighted stop-driver boards for the drawknobs), the virtual stops respond as expected but the lighted drawknobs do not. Everything else is working, keyboards, pistons, etc. When I select the midi input and output under General Settings/Midi Ports, if I select the UM-ONE for both (As that is the only option (Cakewalk cable that comes with the Artisan boards has both midi in and out) it detects a midi short. How do I get Hauptwerk to send a midi signal to the lighted drawknobs?

Frustrated. With 247 drawknobs, I would really like them to function when using the combination system/pistons.

Thanks in advance for any help and guidance!
Harold (HJ) Van Dyk
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby B. Milan » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:57 pm

Hello Harold,

Please make sure the MIDI ports are ticked on the MIDI OUT ports screen tab, then auto-detect the virtual stops and make sure that the option for sending matching MIDI output is ticked for each. If that still doesn't work, make sure the stops on your console are configured to receive on the same MIDI channel and event numbers (notes/NRPNs/etc.) that they send on.

I hope this helps!
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby GrahamH » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:06 pm

Hello Harold
This is a slightly expanded version of Brett's instructions which you could try:
1. With the organ loaded, go into General Settings>General Configuration Wizard and continue (after un-ticking the RESET boxes) until you get to the option to Enable MIDI output – and select YES
2. Continue and tick the MIDI in and MIDI out ports that you are actually using i.e. the ports on your MIDI interface that have MIDI cables connected
3. Confirm audio settings and exit the wizard
4. Right click an on-screen stop or coupler and auto-detect the corresponding physical draw knob. Tick the option to send matching MIDI output. Untick the option to toggle state of virtual stop. Check that the listed MIDI out port is actually the MIDI interface port that is connected to the draw stop (lamps) circuit board’s MIDI-in socket.
5. Test this one stop or coupler – does it control its on-screen counterpart? Does the lamp echo the on-screen counterpart regardless of how you activate the on-screen stop or coupler?
6. If this one stop or coupler works OK you should be able to configure all of them in a similar manner.
7. If you get MIDI feed back, you may be able to fix it by going into General Settings>General Preferences>Advanced Preferences and ticking the bottom box – “Don’t halt if MIDI feedback detected”.

Hope this helps

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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby hvandyk » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:02 pm

I tried both the long and short versions and with no luck. Anytime I clicked on the MIDI in and MIDI outs I ended up with the short error. After reading a few times, It struck me that with Artisian boards there is a complete loop. The USB from the computer goes to the supplied cakewalk cable with the midi out cable going to the MIDI In on the 1st Artisan board and then you daisy chain them until you get to the last board. On the last Artisan Board you connect the other lead from the Cakewalk cable to the MIDI out of the last board. So I removed the Out lead of the cakewalk cable from the MIDI In of the 1st board. Wonderful! No more short. So I tried the above again with my custom sample set and then St Annes but the drawknobs still do not light up when using the virtual stops. Since I am using Hauptwerk's combination system every time I push piston, I can not see what is or is not selected on the physical drawknobs. (The virtual stops do respond correctly to the physical stop, just not the other way around)

Other suggestions?
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby GrahamH » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:38 am

In your original post you wrote
When using the physical stop, the light comes on and off as appropriate and the virtual stop follows along. So far so good.


Indeed - so far so good! But what is causing the lights to come on and off?
Do the physical lights also come on and off as appropriate when you click on the on-screen virtual stops, or is it only when you try to use pistons that they do not respond?

I initially had a similar issue with Classic Midi Works lighted stop tabs. i.e. the stop tabs would operate the virtual stops, but the physical lights did not echo the state of the on-screen stops (and Hauptwerk complained about MIDI feed back). For some unexplained reason they would not work with a Motu Microlite MIDI-to-USB interface and I was only able to get them working when I substituted a different MIDI interface.

Important - did you make sure to untick the option to toggle state of virtual stop?

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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby hvandyk » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:10 am

When I use the physical drawknob, the lights come on and off as appropriate and the virtual stop corresponds appropriately. When I click on a virtual stop on the screen, I can hear the stop when I play it but the light on the physical drawknob does not come on. When using pistons, because I am using Hauptwerks combination system, I do see (and hear) the registration changes on the computer screen but the lights of the physical drawknobs do not turn on or off/change to correspond to the new registration.
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby jkinkennon » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:22 am

Look at the Artisan configuration for any options that prevent their stops board from trying to be the organ's capture system. The physical stops should not light just because the drawknobs are activated. Rather they should light only when they receive the appropriate HW MIDI command. The board should not echo any of these commands back to HW as this would cause the MIDI feedback loop. You may need the physical MIDI cabling loop in order to get the signals from HW to the Artisan board.

I would be looking for any opportunity to use a MIDI merge device or two separate "cakewalk" interfaces. The daisy chain architecture is a problem waiting to happen.
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby GrahamH » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:46 am

Thank you, Harold.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this tells me that the lights in your Syndyne stops are responding to the switches in your Syndyne stops and not, as they ought to be, to MIDI messages sent by your Hauptwerk on-screen virtual stops.

For the set-up to function correctly you need the physical switches to send MIDI messages, via a MIDI encoder, to the Hauptwerk virtual stops, and the Hauptwerk virtual stops to apply voltage, via a MIDI decoder (or driver board), to the physical lights.

If your MIDI encoder and your MIDI decoder are separate (discrete) circuit boards, this is fairly easy to achieve. If the encoder function and the decoder function are on the same board, life becomes more complicated.

Without seeing your actual set-up and your hardware I can only guess what the problem might be.
The most likely possibilities are:
You have not wired the lights correctly. There should not be any connection between the physical switches and the lights. The lights should only be connected to the MIDI decoder or driver board.
You have not got the MIDI cables connected to the right ports.
You have not configured Hauptwerk to send the correct MIDI-out messages to the MIDI decoder or driver board.

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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby organtechnology » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:28 pm

I am having trouble locating the Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs. Do you have a part number?

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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby hvandyk » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:34 pm

I bought 250 brand new units from;

MCN SYSTEMS - Organ Services and Sales  
Musical instrument store in Hillsboro, Oregon
Address: 7940 NE NW Nicholas Ct Ste. E, Hillsboro, OR 97124
Phone: (503) 645-5222
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby hvandyk » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:40 pm

Well, I think from all of the replies, I am starting to figure this out. The Artisan boards have terminal for both the switch and the light on them. If wired correctly, when a drawknob is pulled on, it also lights (if not wired correctly, it won't). So I know I have them (the boards) wired correctly. So the light is not getting the signal to turn on or off from Hauptwerk but rather from the Artisan MIDI board. So if everything that has been written in the replies makes sense to me, I take it that what I want it to do is not possible. The only option I have is to use the Artisan combination system which means that Hauptwerk would basically be a sound engine.
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby GrahamH » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:55 am

Harold

What you want to do is most certainly possible, but it may be that your Artisan boards are not suitable.
I am sending you a PM/

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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby organtechnology » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:13 am

hvandyk wrote:I bought 250 brand new units from;

MCN SYSTEMS - Organ Services and Sales  
Musical instrument store in Hillsboro, Oregon
Address: 7940 NE NW Nicholas Ct Ste. E, Hillsboro, OR 97124
Phone: (503) 645-5222


Please excuse me for butting in here but those are Rodgers lighted drawknobs perhaps built by Syndyne.

Are you using the Artisan uMIDI boards or another model? If so you will need a set of MIDI to lamp driver Decoder boards to drive the lights in the drawknobs. This allows Hauptwerk to control the lights independently of the drawknob switchs. If you have the lamps wired to the drawknobs directly you will need to remove those connections and connect ONLY the decoder board to the lights. This way when a Virtual Stop on the screen lights, the light in the corresponding knob will be lit by Hauptwerk sending a MIDI signal to the decoder. The switches should not be connected directly to the lights.

If this is the way you have them wired then you need to teach Hauptwerk that when a certain drawknob is pulled the corresponding light should be turned on.
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby hvandyk » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:39 pm

Yes, they are the Rodgers drwaknobs built by Syndyne.

I am using the Artisan Lighted Stop driver boards. They have separate connection for the light and the switch. So switch and light wiring from the drawknob go to different terminals on the Artisan board. If you do not wire the board correctly (wire for a light from a drawknob connected to the MIDI Board light terminal #1 requires that the wire for the switch from that drawknob be connected to the MIDI Board Switch terminal #1) then the light will not come on and off as the drawknob is pulled or pushed. All of that is working correctly so the boards are wired correctly. So basically,the Artisan MIDI board send the signal to the light when the drawknob is operated rather then Hauptwerk. That is where the problem seems to be, the signal needs to be coming from Hauptwerk and so far none of the proposed solutions has worked.
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Re: Syndyne Lighted Drawknobs

Postby jkinkennon » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:13 pm

Any time there are two devices trying to be the organ capture system there will be issues. If Artisan cannot provide a workaround that allows Hauptwerk to be the only device in control of the stops then I would look for another provider. What are their support people telling you? Using HW as a box of ranks is going to eliminate a lot of functionality I would think. Decoders are relatively inexpensive after all.
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