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MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:57 am
by SKresge
Does anyone know if there is an actual performance difference between using the AVB Ethernet connection vs. the Thunderbolt connection with the Mac on the MOTU 16a?

The unit will be about 30' from the computer and a 30' optic thunderbolt cable is about $300 vs. about $50 for a decent shielded 50' cable.

Was just wondering if anyone was using the thunderbolt for distance and if there was a benefit over the ethernet. And if there was anything specific one should look for in a ethernet cable.

Thanks,

Scott

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:16 am
by organtechnology
SKresge wrote:Does anyone know if there is an actual performance difference between using the AVB Ethernet connection vs. the Thunderbolt connection with the Mac on the MOTU 16a?

The unit will be about 30' from the computer and a 30' optic thunderbolt cable is about $300 vs. about $50 for a decent shielded 50' cable.

Was just wondering if anyone was using the thunderbolt for distance and if there was a benefit over the ethernet. And if there was anything specific one should look for in a ethernet cable.

Thanks,

Scott


I believe the first connection to the MOTU must be USB/Thunderbolt and then an additional unit or units can be connected via AVB. Thomas

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:42 pm
by magnaton
SKresge wrote:Was just wondering if anyone was using the thunderbolt for distance and if there was a benefit over the ethernet. And if there was anything specific one should look for in a ethernet cable.

I have minimal experience with this architecture, however I did install a 100' Cat6 run to be used for AVB and had no issues with latency. It is documented to be a well thought out standard. I'd go with the Ethernet cable.

organtechnology wrote:I believe the first connection to the MOTU must be USB/Thunderbolt and then an additional unit or units can be connected via AVB. Thomas

You can connect the Mac directly to the 16A via a Ethernet cable. Here a quote from the MOTU 16A manual:

Apple supports AVB on all current shipping Macs and your MOTU interface can operate as a
standard AVB audio interface when connected to your Mac’s AVB-equipped Ethernet port


Danny B.

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:41 pm
by organtechnology
magnaton wrote:
SKresge wrote:Was just wondering if anyone was using the thunderbolt for distance and if there was a benefit over the ethernet. And if there was anything specific one should look for in a ethernet cable.

I have minimal experience with this architecture, however I did install a 100' Cat6 run to be used for AVB and had no issues with latency. It is documented to be a well thought out standard. I'd go with the Ethernet cable.

organtechnology wrote:I believe the first connection to the MOTU must be USB/Thunderbolt and then an additional unit or units can be connected via AVB. Thomas

You can connect the Mac directly to the 16A via a Ethernet cable. Here a quote from the MOTU 16A manual:

Apple supports AVB on all current shipping Macs and your MOTU interface can operate as a
standard AVB audio interface when connected to your Mac’s AVB-equipped Ethernet port


Danny B.

























Yes you can connect a Mac to the LAN port but MOTU tech department told me not to do it as the connection to USB/Thunderbolt works better. It also requires WiFi internet connection (not a big deal) but ....

Thomas

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:26 pm
by SKresge
organtechnology wrote:Yes you can connect a Mac to the LAN port but MOTU tech department told me not to do it as the connection to USB/Thunderbolt works better. It also requires WiFi internet connection (not a big deal) but ....

Thomas


Is the WiFi connection required for the Ethernet? or for any connection with the USB/Thunderbolt as well? This organ is not on WiFi so then it BECOMES A BIG DEAL.

Scott

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:39 pm
by magnaton
SKresge wrote:Is the WiFi connection required for the Ethernet?

Only if you want to access the MOTU Web App from a remote device like as iPad or smart phone. Otherwise you just access it from Safari or other browser on your HW computer.

Danny B

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:32 pm
by dw154515
When I called and spoke to MOTU about this, they recommended USB or Thinderbolt to first unit, then AVB to other(a). They told me latency was better this way. Just call them and verify. Very helpful to me.

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:15 pm
by engrssc
dw154515 wrote:USB or Thunderbolt to first unit, then AVB to others


Yep, got the same advice altho didn't find latency too objectionable. Very similar to playing some older real pipes. I believed the support tech guy, just was curious.

In our case, first unit Ultralite AVB was next to the computer so the USB choice was obvious., The Ao 24 is 160 ft from the console connected by AVB. Can't detect any latency.

Rgds,
Ed

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:11 am
by SKresge
SKresge wrote:The unit will be about 30' from the computer and a 30' optic thunderbolt cable is about $300 vs. about $50 for a decent shielded 50' cable.


Been researching the Thunderbolt Optic Cable from Corning and not so nice reviews on the longevity of this product, most say it dies after 1 year, right after the warranty expires. Not seeing any USB cables at this distance, so latency is something i will have to live with, unless someone can suggest another work around for the unit being at this distance.

Any Ideas?

Scott

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:55 am
by jkinkennon
MOTU advertises 0.625ms latency over seven hops of AVB so it is difficult to understand a representative thinking that latency would be better via USB which would be many times slower. I'm much more comfortable with Ed's comment he could not detect any latency. I've got the XMOS development board for AVB and didn't hear any delay using it with my Mac mini. I just wish that there was a solution for AVB on my Win 10 machine.

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:48 am
by organtechnology
jkinkennon wrote:MOTU advertises 0.625ms latency over seven hops of AVB so it is difficult to understand a representative thinking that latency would be better via USB which would be many times slower. I'm much more comfortable with Ed's comment he could not detect any latency. I've got the XMOS development board for AVB and didn't hear any delay using it with my Mac mini. I just wish that there was a solution for AVB on my Win 10 machine.


There is. It's called Dante. 8) Thomas

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:41 pm
by dw154515
organtechnology wrote:
jkinkennon wrote:MOTU advertises 0.625ms latency over seven hops of AVB so it is difficult to understand a representative thinking that latency would be better via USB which would be many times slower. I'm much more comfortable with Ed's comment he could not detect any latency. I've got the XMOS development board for AVB and didn't hear any delay using it with my Mac mini. I just wish that there was a solution for AVB on my Win 10 machine.


There is. It's called Dante. 8) Thomas


Check out the Atterotech Synapse D32o. It doesn't have any built in DSP to my knowledge.

I have not used this piece, but I considered it. I have used their other Dante devices, and they work very well. Great company based close to me in Ft. Wayne, IN. Great support, too. I think this thing is roughly $2-3,000 though, and can't be bought online anywhere. You'll have to find a local dealer. Dante is awesome, though. I do like it better than AVB.

https://www.atterotech.com/products/high-channel-density-networked-audio-products/synapse-d32o

When I called and spoke to MOTU recently, I asked them if they would be making Dante devices anytime soon, and the guy said not to his knowledge. I wonder, though, if it will eventually happen. I'm sure there is a hefty license for using Dante.

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:46 pm
by dw154515
jkinkennon wrote:MOTU advertises 0.625ms latency over seven hops of AVB so it is difficult to understand a representative thinking that latency would be better via USB which would be many times slower. I'm much more comfortable with Ed's comment he could not detect any latency. I've got the XMOS development board for AVB and didn't hear any delay using it with my Mac mini. I just wish that there was a solution for AVB on my Win 10 machine.


My understanding was that this was the fault of the AVB driver in Apple's OS. Maybe this has been rectified?

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:59 pm
by engrssc
Nothing wrong with Dante except if you or your client is on a tight budget. :o MOTU has a reasonable market with AVB. (Audio Video Bridge) altho haven't seen much about the video part product wise. Maybe they should reconsider calling it to be just Audio Bridge??

As for the 30 ft distance issue, depending on extenuating situations, installing the MOTU 16A via Thunderbolt close to the computer and extending the analog (balanced) in's and out's???

30 ft analog audio isn't a problem (normally), an option??.

Or add a MOTU Ultralight AVB at the computer location and extend AVB to the 16. A klutzy but doable opiuton. :roll:

Wonder how many organists can detect 0.625 millisecond latency even over seven hops of AVB Normally I'm too busy thinking about what I'm playing to be bothered by that short a latency even if I could notice it. 8)

Rgds,
Ed

Re: MOTU 16a Thunderbolt vs AVB to Mac

PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:30 pm
by Eric Sagmuller
SKresge wrote:
SKresge wrote:The unit will be about 30' from the computer and a 30' optic thunderbolt cable is about $300 vs. about $50 for a decent shielded 50' cable.


Been researching the Thunderbolt Optic Cable from Corning and not so nice reviews on the longevity of this product, most say it dies after 1 year, right after the warranty expires.
Any Ideas?

Scott


Not sure how an optical cable can die, unless it's flexed around frequently. I suppose if the console were movable and moved frequently, it could be a problem.

Eric