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Reversible divisional cancel

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...

Reversible divisional cancel

Postby engrssc » Wed May 01, 2019 5:16 pm

Haven't had a chance to research this idea yet, wondered if anyone has. Here's the "plan". to be able to apply a MIDI control (piston) to apply a divisional cancel which on the second push would re-establish (reverse) the registration which would consist of stops turned on by a c/a piston as well as some extra hand registered. When this new piston would be pushed the first time, all organ stops in a given division (manual) would turn off (cancel) so that a virtual instrument (piano) could play solo on that manual without any organ stops sounding. Later pushing "that" piston the second time, would turn on all of the stops that were turned off. That would include stops from a c/a as well as hand registered. Can do?

This isn't exactly the way a reversible in H/W normally works, I realize. There would be a divisional cancel piston that works as a normal cancel, not reversible. I would place this Reversible Divisional Cancel piston next to the G/C.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby josq » Wed May 01, 2019 5:21 pm

That is probably possible using floating divisions

What do you mean by c/a?
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby engrssc » Wed May 01, 2019 6:17 pm

josq wrote:What do you mean by c/a?


Combination Action.

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby IainStinson » Wed May 01, 2019 6:44 pm

I assume that you want to use the midi piano from a sample set without changing the sample set definition files (or using CODM).

I can't think of a way to achieve what you want using only standard Hauptwerk controls - though some cunning use of the HW master scoped pistons(pg 101) or using HW master reversibles (pg 106) might get you someway towards what you seek.

If you are controlling the external midi piano by using the Hauptwerk "direct Midi output from divisions" (pg 159), then I don't think floating divisions will help - the midi output will move with the division when it is "floated". I also believe that whenever that division is played it will send midi output to the keyboard (so unless you turn the midi keyboard off or otherwise silence it it will always play).

If you are controlling the midi keyboard by sacrificing a stop (Direct MIDI input/output for ranks/pipes see viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17434#p130468) then you can just use the normal HW pistons to register "with the midi keyboard". Would this provide the functionality needed?

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby engrssc » Wed May 01, 2019 8:04 pm

The piano is independent of HW, namely using Pianotek which runs on a separate computer. HW only provides MIDI in this case from the Choir manual. Switching the MIDI stream off silences the piano. Using the Choir (division) cancels (silences) the organ sound. Getting the registration turned back on is really the issue because the organ sound (registration) can vary. ie whatever the organist sets up which can include registration from one of the c/a pistons along with some hand registered stops. Basically 'getting back to where we were' before canceling the organ stops' is the issue.. Turning the piano on and off is not a problem. For the moment, the piano is switched (on/off) by a tab on the coupler rail. It could as easily be controlled by a stop draw knob.

BTW the piano sound has it's own, independent amp and speakers, not going thru the HW audio setup..

Presently, the piano (sound) is heard along with the organ (sound). There is a kick switch mounted on the Choir expression pedal which initially provided sustain (CC64) or sostenuto (CC66) for the Choir manual which it still does. The kick switch also provides sustain for the piano as well.

Per the organist's request, the sustain/sostenuto feature can be switched now to operate on either Choir or the Great manual. But that's another matter.

Rgds,
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby mnailor » Wed May 01, 2019 10:59 pm

Does this have to work with all possible samplesets, or could it be limited to those organs with a Choir unison off or Grand Orgue (manual 1) Barker machine off? Neither would kill the stops drawn on manual 1, so toggling that together with the MIDI out to the piano might work.

Since reversibles are additive, they don't seem helpful. There isn't really a return to previous registration capability except hand reg, which only returns to individually selected stops, so if the registration was set by a combination piston, that doesn't work.
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby OrganoPleno » Thu May 02, 2019 10:47 am

engrssc wrote:When this new piston would be pushed the first time, all organ stops in a given division (manual) would turn off (cancel) so that a virtual instrument (piano) could play solo on that manual without any organ stops sounding. Later pushing "that" piston the second time, would turn on all of the stops that were turned off.


Before pushing the Divisional Cancel... just SAVE the current Registration to another Divisional piston.
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby magnaton » Thu May 02, 2019 11:25 am

Hi Ed:

Nice puzzle you presented us here! I came up with a 2 button solution. You can assign the "copy current registration" to a MIDI control and a "paste registration" to another. This is found at the bottom of the MIDI/key triggers for master pistons and menu functions | advanced items menu.

I created a divisional cancel piston (using the scope function) then assigned the "copy current reg" to the same piston. It now does both; copies and cancels. Then the 2nd piston (paste reg) acts like a 'reverse' function to get you back again.

BTW, the this one button design you are requesting was found on many console Hammond organs in the 1970s. A orange tab called "Solo Piano" did just that, silencing whatever voices you had and returning them when you turned if off. :)

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby engrssc » Thu May 02, 2019 12:38 pm

Appreciate the ideas so far.

A consideration is this is a totally headless instrument and any changes need to be made while playing.

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby engrssc » Thu May 02, 2019 8:41 pm

mnailor wrote:Does this have to work with all possible samplesets, or could it be limited to those organs with a Choir unison off


Unison Off so far is the closest to what is needed and is easy to implement. Haven't found a work around if the native sample set doesn't provide this feature. I didn't find (so far) in Hauptwerk for such a can be added feature as Unison Off either. Likewise (obvious) Unison Off doesn't cancel sub or super octaves.

Might need to check with Jake for a possible custom fix.

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby josq » Fri May 03, 2019 2:46 am

I am quite sure it can be done by assigning the relevant keyboard as a floating division MIDI keyboard (via organ settings - advanced MIDI - Floating divisions). Next, in organ settings - keyboards - primary input / input 2, set route 1 and 3, leaving 2 and 4 empty. Finally, in the floating divisions control panel, assign the relevant cycler button to a piston on your console.

You won't switch any registrations off, you just temporarily do not play the division, that's the idea
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby IainStinson » Fri May 03, 2019 8:49 am

As noted above, when you move a division to another keyboard, the whole division will move including the "direct Midi output from divisions" which I assume is driving the external midi keyboard, so I don't think using floating divisions will solve the problem. (When the division is assigned to an empty keyboard slot, the "direct midi output from divisions" will also be assigned to that same empty slot.)

I still think a simple and understandable way to control the keyboard is by sacrificing a stop and using Direct MIDI input/output for ranks/pipes see http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17434#p130468 which is essentially creating a "Midi Out" stop.

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby josq » Fri May 03, 2019 2:44 pm

IainStinson wrote: the "direct Midi output from divisions" which I assume is driving the external midi keyboard

If that is the case, maybe the midi from the physical keyboard can be sent directly to the Pianotek software AND to HW in parallel?

No need to control midi software (Pianotek) by other midi software (HW) if you have a midi controller already (organ console)
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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby IainStinson » Sat May 04, 2019 4:50 am

Following josq's comment.... and making the piaon software's data stream independent of Hauptwerk....

If the piano software is running on the same computer as HW then you could use https://www.bome.com/ or similar software and a virtual midi "cable" to such as https://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/virtualmidi.html to split the midi so that there is an independent stream for HW and for the piano software.

With the "bome" software you might also be able to program some control to manipulate the stops (by sending appropriate midi sequences into HW to provide the "reversible" function you want to have).

There is a "free" and functionally restricted version of the Bome software for Windows which my be sufficient for this problem. https://www.bome.com/products/mtclassic Bome expect you to use this only for private use and expect you to send them a postcard! https://www.bome.com/postcardware.

If the piano software is running on a separate computer then you could also use real hardware such as https://www.midiboutique.com/MIDI-Processors/mpo2x2 to replicate the midi data stream.

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Re: Reversible divisional cancel

Postby engrssc » Sun May 05, 2019 3:28 pm

Further info: the existing Pianoteq https://www.pianoteq.com/ (I misspelled the software originally) is an independent, standalone setup having it's own computer, audio system - amp/speakers as well as it has it's own keyboard. There's no issue using a MIDI output from the organ console to play the piano, the issue is controlling HW Choir manual. The plan is to be able to add the Pianoteq to the Choir manual (registration) and be able turn off (cancel) the Choir manual's organ sound (piano only) and be able to return back to the same Choir manual's registration. In other words just as would be the case with a reversible.

The previous thinking was to do this within Hauptwerk. Re-thinking, the seemingly simplest solution is to provide a control (piston) to control (on/off) of the Choir manual's audio (output) with a second piston to control the MIDI output to the Pianoteq setup. I see that as a technically possible solution, but wonder how user (organist) friendly that would be.

In place of using pistons, we could use (stop) drawknobs or toe pistons for control.

A 3 way switch ie: organ only, piano only or both? The KISS principle?

Rgds,
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