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Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...
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Randall Mullin

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Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostWed May 06, 2020 6:12 pm

I am relatively new to Reaper from Sonar. I am an organist and use Reaper with the Hauptwerk VSTi (Hauptwerk 4) to record MIDI with all Channels coming through one track and this works well for me.

The reason for my post is that I have just made a recording and there is a single note that is incorrectly played. When I use the Piano Roll view of the MIDI Editor to cut that one note, and then return to track view, my program changes (piston presses) have been messed up and therefore I cannot save the edit.

In Sonar I was able to go to Piano Roll View to fix a note without it affecting anything else (only note data). How do I set Reaper to do the same thing?

I would be very grateful if you would give step by step instructions.

Many thanks,
Randall Mullin
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostWed May 06, 2020 7:04 pm

I do not use Reaper, so my comments are going to be generic.

It sound like a "chase events" issue, where Reaper is set to "chase events" and Sonar was not. "Chase events" will attempt set the programs and settings based what should be in effect at the project cursor position. For example, let's say you start recording, set your stops, play 8 bar but catch a key in bar 6, change stops after bar 8, play another 8 bars, then stop recording. When you set the project cursor to bar 6 to fix the caught key, "chase events' will attempt to set the registration that was in effect in bar 6.

I have found that the sample sets I use in HW do not reliably chase events. If I reset audio/midi in HW, then play the project from the beginning, HW works fine, but if I rewind and edit parts and start playing in the middle I know to expect stops are left on that should be off, and stops that show off on the HW screen that still sound. HW is not a VST instrument, and I have found it less frustrating to set stops, record a section , print that section, then repeat for the next section. I am usually adding non-HW VST's to fill out the arrangement, so this works best since midi thru and midi ports must be changed specifically to use HW and need to be reset to use true VST instruments.

You may be able to find 'chase events" or its equivalent in Reaper and disable it to see if it helps your situation.
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostWed May 06, 2020 8:40 pm

I made a recording with Reaper with the Hauptwerk VSTi plug in (Hauptwerk 4). I pressed the pistons that I had set up for the performance. When I finished the MIDI recording, I played it back in Reaper and all stop changes happened as I recorded them. I always press Cancel at the end of recordings (and it is recorded).

When I used Reaper’s Piano Roll View (MIDI Editor) to change just one note, even with no stops on, and then played it back from the beginning, the stops did not play back as I had set them through pistons. Expression data (swell pedal movement) is not adversely affected (works as recorded).

This happened once before and the Reaper file became corrupted. I had to copy the note data, paste it in another Reaper file and press pistons while it was making a WAV recording from the MIDI file. Luckily the expression data was not corrupted. There has to be a simple setting that needs to be changed to make this work properly.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

Randall
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Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostThu May 07, 2020 3:32 am

[Topic moved here.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostThu May 07, 2020 10:44 am

I would suggest that after you edit a mdi part and you think your registrations aren't correct, set your DAW's project cursor to the beginning, toggle to HW and execute in HW, Engine-->Reset organ/Midi. Then press play in your DAW.

For me, Reset organ/Midi has cleared many 'undocumented features' in HW when editing in a DAW.
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostThu May 07, 2020 4:32 pm

randallschmid Thanks so much for your replies. Today I opened the file, when in the Piano Roll View, double clicked the note (without any registration on) to delete it and when I returned to the beginning of the piece in Piano Roll View and also in Track View all my Program Change Messages (Piston Presses) were wiped out. This happen to me one other time.

I ended up playing the piece in Render mode, to make a WAV recording, and pressing the pistons at the appropriate times to get the experience over with. Luckily, all expression data (swell pedal movements) were not affected.

I am convinced now that the Reaper Program is corrupted. I will wait until I upgrade to Hauptwerk V before investigating this further. Hopefully with a new VSTi plug in from Hauptwerk V and an reinstall of the latest version of Reaper will fix the problem. (If not, I will be back!)
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostThu May 07, 2020 6:52 pm

Randall,
A couple of things you can try before we move on.

Before you edit the note:

1. Look at the midi track with Reaper's event view? This view will display all notes and program changes in the sequential order that they will be sent to HW. Do you see the program changes? (Program changes generally are identified as CC, NRPM MSB,/LSB, or Sysex. However some sample set manufacturers use notes outside of the keyboard compass or on different midi channels than the sample set's internal keyboard definition) .

2. If yes to #1, edit the note. After you edit the note, call up the midi track in event view again. Are the program changes gone?

3. If yes to #2, if you <ctrl-Z> to undo your change, are the program changes back?

4. If yes to #3, if you delete the note using the event view, are the program changes deleted?

If yes to #4, there definitely is a bug in Reaper. If you answer no to any of the above, the issue is elsewhere.
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostFri May 08, 2020 11:14 am

randallschmid Thank you so much for your input regarding this most frustrating problem. Here are the answers to your Questions.

When I double clicked on the note in Piano Roll View to delete it, I went back to beginning of the piece in the Event List View and many of the CCs (21 Non-Reg Parm MSBs and LSBs, Data Entry 14-bit commands) were gone and only three remained (2 Data Entry 14-bit and 1 Non-Reg Parm LSB). There was no sound (Program Change) at the beginning.

I closed the file without saving changes and I when I reopened it I checked to make sure that the program changes were there and they were.

I then played through the piece to the point of the problem note and found it in the Event list. This time I deleted it in the Event List. I returned to the beginning of the piece in Piano Roll view and the piece played back correctly.

I should also mention that when this occurred in another recording project I tried to Over Dub the piece again to record the program changes back into it. They did not record in the Over Dub and therefore the only way to get the program changes in, as I mentioned before, was to press the pistons while the file was rendering to a WAV file.

If you have any other suggestions I would greatly appreciate hearing from you.
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostFri May 08, 2020 11:33 am

randallschmid I just remembered that in one of the Reaper videos that I saw there was a mention of a button in the bar at the top of the Piano Roll View screen having to do with CC’s. Does this have anything to do with this problem?

If so, should I click this button (turn it off) before I delete or add a note?

Many thanks,
Randall
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostFri May 08, 2020 12:20 pm

Randallschmid I just looked up the button in the Tool Bar in Piano Roll View on the video and when you hover over it is says:

CC: Selection follows note selection (on)

It is not explained in the video and I could not find out anything about it in the Reaper Tutorial either. I am an organist and, of course, I don’t have a clue as to what that means.

Thanks again,
Randall
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostFri May 08, 2020 5:29 pm

Randall ,

I think you hit on the issue. I Googled "CC: Selection follows note selection" and found the following:description:

CC selection follows note selection is on, you can select and then move notes with the mouse, and the CC info moves with them. If: CC selection follows note selection is on, and you then use a function or action that moves notes in an automated way (like humanize), the CC info does not follow the movement of the notes


The purpose of this option is to allow you to edit a note and simultaneously affect the CC data that pertains to the note. A typical example in a non pipe organ world would be to play a note on a synthesizer and use a mod wheel to apply vibrato. This will creates CC entries. If you move or delete the note, you would want the vibrato to move or delete with it.

Easiest way to verify is to duplicate the track, delete the note with "CC selection" off, and check the results in event list.
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostSat May 09, 2020 9:05 am

Randallschmid Instead of creating a new track, I reopened the original file with then wrong note and it played back correctly with the wrong note in place. (If there is a difference between doing this and creating another track please let me know), I then went to the Piano Roll View, turned off the CC: selection follows note selection. I then deleted the note and when I checked the Event List at the beginning it looked like it did to begin with.

I then played through it from the beginning. The original piston press (Program Change message) was fine, but every piston press after that was wrong (contained the wrong stops).

At least, at this point, I can delete incorrect notes in the Event List and not have the Piston Presses affected. I sure hope that I don’t have to do that if I have to add a note (I haven’t checked).

Where do you think I go from here?

Many thanks,
Randall
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostSat May 09, 2020 10:17 am

I suggest creating 3 duplicate tracks of your original midi track. You can select which one to send to HW by soloing the track and muting the others. You can only have one instance of HW running, but you can have several midi tracks that point to it.

You can then try cutting the note in event list in track 2, cut the note using. piano roll in track 3, and compare the differences between the tracks in event list. Theoretically they should have the same number of events and only the one note that was cut would be the difference between your original track.

You can also try muting the note rather than delete it. I would be curious to see if that then plays properly.

Before each test, in HW, you should select Engine-->Reset organ/MIDI. This command has resolved inconsistencies in HW's stop selection vs. what I expected to see happen. For example, HW's general cancel does not create midi entries to close all stops. It only sends close midi messages for the stops HW thinks are open. As a result there can be stops left open. Reset organ/MIDI makes sure all stops are initialized to closed.
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostSat May 09, 2020 12:39 pm

Randallschmid Thanks again, I did try muting the note instead of deleting it and the effect was the same as previous, with cutting the note with the CC:selection follows note selection turned off, i.e., the programs changes after the initial program change were wrong.

When I chose Reset/organ MIDI with the Muted note as well as the deleted note, the program changes were wrong from the beginning.

I’m sorry that I am not comfortable creating multiple tracks and trying to check all of the changes through the Events List. As I mentioned, I am an organist and checking the events list at the beginning and deleting a note there is about as far as I can go.

If you can think of any other simple things to try I am ready and willing to give them a shot, otherwise I will have to wait to see if this issue reoccurs when I install Hauptwerk V and the latest version of Reaper.

Again, I am so thankful for your willingness to help.

All the best,
Randall
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Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: Reaper/Hauptwerk MIDI Editor Problems

PostSat May 09, 2020 2:07 pm

Randall,

In HW under MIDI ports. Do you have the right side (advanced) boxes checked for VST link on both input and output?
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