Midi Out for Paramount Organs only sending note on/off?

Just tinkering with some other 'sounds' for my Paramount organs and I connected a Roland Sound Canvas. So, the notes on the three keyboards and pedalboard are correctly passed to the Roland and I can play those sounds along with the Paramount sounds. However, it seems like either Hauptwerk or Paramount is ONLY passing note on/note off and no other midi commands (such as pitch bend or the sustain pedal). Curious if anyone knows the reason the other MIDI commands are not passed from the keyboard. If I connect the M-Audio keyboard directly to the Roland, the other functions work correctly.

Theories?

[mdyde]

Hello David,

I assume you mean you have your MIDI keyboards connected to computer MIDI IN ports, configured to play the Paramount's virtual keyboards, and your Roland Sound Canvas connected via a MIDI OUT port from Hauptwerk, configured to output from one of the Paramount's virtual keyboards or ranks.

In that case, your Roland Sound Canvas would indeed only be sent MIDI note-on/off messages, since that's what virtual keyboards and ranks transmit in Hauptwerk. Hauptwerk doesn't have support for MIDI pitch-bend or piano sustain pedals, and it doesn't provide direct 'MIDI THRU' functionality. If you want your MIDI keyboard(s) also to play your Sound Canvas directly (in parallel to Hauptwerk) then you'd need to use some external hardware or software to route the MIDI from your keyboards both to Hauptwerk and (simultaneously, i.e. in parallel) to your Sound Canvas. However, in that case, your wouldn't be able to turn output to your Sound Canvas on/off from within Hauptwerk (as you could if you used MIDI output from a virtual rank, for example).

Does your Sound Canvas have a MIDI Thru connector? If so, have you tried making it the first unit in the MIDI chain, then connecting from the MIDI Thru to the Hauptwerk computer?

Thanks, Martin. You've confirmed my theory regarding Hauptwerk. As far as the Roland, it has two MIDI In (A & B) and one MIDI Out/Thru. I suppose there might be a way to send the desired commands somehow using these. I'd especially like to send the Sustain and perhaps Volume. I'll do some more research. I definitely want Hauptwerk to control the keyboards with the MIDI stop tabs.

[mdyde]

Thanks, David.

In that case, unfortunately I think you probably wouldn't easily be able to do what you're hoping for (unless conceivably you were able to use some additional MIDI routing/filtering hardware/software to route all data through Hauptwerk, except for the pitch-bend etc., which you'd route separately so that it bypassed Hauptwerk, then merging Hauptwerk's output with the bypassed output again and routing it to your Sound Canvas -- all very fiddly).

Roland made several versions of the Sound Canvas, because the original one proved so popular. I can see that on your model they’ve slightly complicated the issue by combining the MIDI Thru and Out sockets into one, but this should not be a problem.

A MIDI Thru is designed to send EXACTLY the data received at the MIDI In port. Hauptwerk does not have a MIDI Thru, so you need the Sound Canvas to be the first unit in the chain. Try connecting the MIDI output of your console to the Sound Canvas MIDI In A, and the Sound Canvas MIDI Thru/Out to your Hauptwerk computer. If that doesn’t work try MIDI In B.

If that doesn’t work you’ll probably need to adjust something using switches on the Sound Canvas. If you could tell us which exact model of the Sound Canvas you have, and if the instructions are available online, I should be able to tell you which settings are required.

MIDI Ox – a free download from
http://www.midiox.com/
will show exactly which signals are being received, if you run it instead of Hauptwerk. Setting up the Inputs and Outputs can be a bit fiddly, but it’s a valuable tool for any MIDI system.

If all else fails, a MIDI Splitter box will provide identical outputs from your input; this is an example:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kenton-THRU-5- ... 1125?psc=1

This one is cheaper, and has extra functionality - it can filter certain MIDI messages:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MIDI-Thru-Filt ... B00JR3XIWI

Thanks for the suggestion. Gives me some place to start. The Roland SC-88VL manual describes how to change the Out/Thru to Thru.

I discovered that I can output an Expression command for a division (cc11) that the Roland recognizes. However, the pedal movement starts at 0 through maximum, so at the lowest level the Roland cannot be heard at all. There must be a way to set the minimum level for expression high enough to be heard, but the HW 'input' settings for each expression pedal have no effect on this. I've reviewed the Roland documentation and can't find any way to set the range for expression. Anyone have ideas here?

[mdyde]

Hello David,

There's no way to change the MIDI CC value range that a virtual expression pedal sends from Hauptwerk, I'm afraid -- it will always be the full 0-127 range. If you want a different range you'd need to find some means external to Hauptwerk (e.g. within your Sound Canvas, if possible, or by using some intermediate MIDI processing hardware/software).

Thanks Martin. I assumed this was a problem I would have to solve on the Roland. Hoping someone on the Forum has some expertise there.

I've used Bome MIDI translator Pro to replace MIDI messages. A rule to narrow the range of CC values on the way out from HW would work.

Please could you let us know in which order your units are currently connected? Is the Roland the first item in the MIDI chain, or your Hauptwerk computer? It’s difficult to help without knowing this. I’ve downloaded the Roland user manual, and am looking through the entries that mention “volume”; but there are 249 of them, so it will take a while!

The three keyboards and pedalboards are connected to a Motu interface (MIDI in) which is connected to the computer. The Roland is connected to a MIDI out from that same interface. The Roland uses four parts (one for each keyboard + pedalboard), each assigned a different MIDI channel (12-15) and those are activated by pressing the MIDI stop on the Paramount organ (341). If I were to put the Roland first, then I don't see how I could also turn those voices off and on from the stops. Having expression control and sustain (or sostenuto) would be really nice, but having the stops control the Roland voices is, to me, much more important.

Of course, we always want to have our cake and eat it too!

Thanks for the explanation – I’m beginning to understand your problem. Are you controlling the Paramount 341 from a touchscreen or using physical stops?

Two ideas occur to me at the moment. If your swell pedal operates a potentiometer, Casio used to make a volume pedal on which the minimum volume was adjustable by a preset. It was called the VP1, and there’s a picture of it here (scroll down a bit to find the photo showing the preset):

https://reverb.com/item/10144259-vintag ... expression

Whether they still make it I don’t know; if not a similar item may be available from another manufacturer. I use one of these in my Hauptwerk organ, and it works perfectly, though eventually the pot will probably fail. If you’re handy with a soldering iron you could add a preset yourself at a convenient point in the console.

Alternatively the software mentioned above by mnailor - Bome MIDI translator - could be programmed to do what you want. You’d need it to function at the point where Hauptwerk feeds your Roland. I don’t know how to do that, but you could ask forum member Jake, who specialises in this sort of customising:

customhworgans@gmail.com

He does first-class work for a reasonable price. I’m sure that what you want to do can be achieved – it’s just a matter of finding the most efficient solution.

Synthesiser-based modules such as the Sound Canvas can add a whole new range of sounds to virtual theatre organs – I’ve experimented in that direction myself, and the results can be fascinating. Some organists do it the other way around – they start with a “modern” electronic organ, such as a Yamaha electone – then connect it to Hauptwerk via MIDI. So do persevere, and please keep us informed of your progress.

I'm happy to report success on this project. Using Bome Translator suggested by mnailor I am able to translate the incoming midi messages so that I have expression control of all three keyboards and pedalboard, and sostenuto on the Great keyboard. Exactly what I was hoping for. Bome had a tutorial that was very close to my needs, and their support forum (a staff member) gave me great help in configuring it correctly.

Mission accomplished!