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Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...

Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby arco » Thu May 05, 2011 5:41 am

John, great piece, but something 'killed' my Sibelius soundfonts...
The only soundfont that is still correct, is the Hauptwerk font. All other fonts (including the Sibelius font itself and General Midi!!) have nothing in the 16 midi channels, so I can't use them anymore.
I tried to install Sibelius once again, but it's still wrong...

Besides, the HW4 link I renamed to 'Hauptwerk for Sibelius' starts the HW4 with completely wrong sounds... When pressing keys, the correct keys on screen seems pressed, but I hear completely different notes (or none at all)
I don't think this has anything to do with the 'Sibelius connector', but even resetting the organ did not solve it.
The regular startup of HW4 does work correctly, so maybe the cache is broken? I would love to get this problem solved too.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby mdyde » Thu May 05, 2011 8:01 am

Hello Arco,

Besides, the HW4 link I renamed to 'Hauptwerk for Sibelius' starts the HW4 with completely wrong sounds... When pressing keys, the correct keys on screen seems pressed, but I hear completely different notes (or none at all)
I don't think this has anything to do with the 'Sibelius connector', but even resetting the organ did not solve it.
The regular startup of HW4 does work correctly, so maybe the cache is broken? I would love to get this problem solved too.


It shouldn't ever be possible for Hauptwerk's sample set data caches to be invalid (unless you overrode Hauptwerk's normal behaviour using the 'Design tools | Load organ (with design options)' functions). To verify you can force a sample set data cache to be regenerated by loading an organ with 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting ...' and just clicking OK.

If you launch that Hauptwerk configuration and temporarily untick *all* entries on both the 'MIDI IN ports' and 'MIDI OUT ports' tabs on the 'General settings | MIDI ports' screen, and then play Hauptwerk by clicking on its virtual keys, do you then hear the expected pipe sounds? (If so, then presumably the problem is somehow related to MIDI messages being remapped/echoed via Sibelius.)
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby John Murdoch » Thu May 05, 2011 10:03 am

Arco,

I take it that you're a Mac user.

First--make sure that both Sibelius and Hauptwerk are unloaded. (You can be absolutely sure that no part of either application is still present by rebooting your computer.)

Second--Let's delete the Playback Definitions, House Styles, Sounds, and Manuscript Paper files that you added to your Sibelius installation from my tutorial. (Only delete the files you got from my ZIP file--leave your other style and playback definitions.)

(This is a good thing to do anyway--I will be releasing a new version of the tutorial, and the sound set, today or tomorrow.)

Third--launch Sibelius, and open a known score that does not use a Hauptwerk-related playback configuration. Does it play back appropriately?

If not, let's take this problem over to the Sibelius support forum--it's not really a Hauptwerk issue, and there may be other Sibelius users who can benefit from our conversation.

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby arco » Thu May 05, 2011 1:39 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello Arco,

Besides, the HW4 link I renamed to 'Hauptwerk for Sibelius' starts the HW4 with completely wrong sounds... When pressing keys, the correct keys on screen seems pressed, but I hear completely different notes (or none at all)
I don't think this has anything to do with the 'Sibelius connector', but even resetting the organ did not solve it.
The regular startup of HW4 does work correctly, so maybe the cache is broken? I would love to get this problem solved too.


It shouldn't ever be possible for Hauptwerk's sample set data caches to be invalid (unless you overrode Hauptwerk's normal behaviour using the 'Design tools | Load organ (with design options)' functions). To verify you can force a sample set data cache to be regenerated by loading an organ with 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting ...' and just clicking OK.

If you launch that Hauptwerk configuration and temporarily untick *all* entries on both the 'MIDI IN ports' and 'MIDI OUT ports' tabs on the 'General settings | MIDI ports' screen, and then play Hauptwerk by clicking on its virtual keys, do you then hear the expected pipe sounds? (If so, then presumably the problem is somehow related to MIDI messages being remapped/echoed via Sibelius.)

Sorry, but even with all midi off, without Sibelius loaded it's still wrong.
Here are two recordings, entering each key from top C to bottom C of the Great keyboard, using Mixture IV:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24265641/Mispla ... put%29.wav
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24265641/Mispla ... ink%29.wav
Hope you can help me.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby arco » Thu May 05, 2011 1:47 pm

John Murdoch wrote:Arco,

I take it that you're a Mac user.

First--make sure that both Sibelius and Hauptwerk are unloaded. (You can be absolutely sure that no part of either application is still present by rebooting your computer.)

Second--Let's delete the Playback Definitions, House Styles, Sounds, and Manuscript Paper files that you added to your Sibelius installation from my tutorial. (Only delete the files you got from my ZIP file--leave your other style and playback definitions.)

(This is a good thing to do anyway--I will be releasing a new version of the tutorial, and the sound set, today or tomorrow.)

Third--launch Sibelius, and open a known score that does not use a Hauptwerk-related playback configuration. Does it play back appropriately?

If not, let's take this problem over to the Sibelius support forum--it's not really a Hauptwerk issue, and there may be other Sibelius users who can benefit from our conversation.

John Murdoch

Thanks, I tested an example score from Sibelius themselves and that one works again.
(However, I am a PC user with Windows 7-64bits)
I will wait until your new version is out. Thanks for all the effort for all users!!
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby B. Milan » Thu May 05, 2011 1:51 pm

Hello arco,

It sounds like your audio output channel settings are not set properly and notes are beng skipped. If you can send us a diagnostic file with this organ loaded we should be able to help you fix it.
Regards,
Brett Milan
http://www.hauptwerk.com
http://www.milandigitalaudio.com
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby arco » Thu May 05, 2011 2:18 pm

B. Milan wrote:Hello arco,

It sounds like your audio output channel settings are not set properly and notes are beng skipped. If you can send us a diagnostic file with this organ loaded we should be able to help you fix it.


Sure - here it is..
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24265641/Hauptw ... uptwerk_gz
(I love dropbox it works great for these things...)
(See the tremulant for the 'problem' with the buttons on the keyboard)
I only set that one piston for the moment.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby B. Milan » Thu May 05, 2011 2:54 pm

Thanks arco,

It is as I expected. Your problem is the extra Audio output setting you created for the VST link which is set to the same output destination as the Main output. You just need to delete this entry, recache the organ then it should work normally. You shouldn't need to create a new entry for the VST link output, rather if you need to use the VST link simply just change the audio output device to 'Hauptwerk AU/VST link' for the main default output.

I hope that helps.
Regards,
Brett Milan
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby arco » Thu May 05, 2011 4:58 pm

Brett, I will try that of cause, but the way you tell it, it would suggest I have to change the audio output each time when I change from VST to 'normal' and back.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2

Postby B. Milan » Thu May 05, 2011 6:35 pm

Hello arco,

You can set up one of the Hauptwerk Alt Config executables to dedicate to the VST settings and keep the other for your live playing. Then just launch whichever Hauptwerk configuration you need to use and you won't need to continually change the audio settings.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Fri May 06, 2011 8:20 am

Friends--

I have posted a new version of the tutorial, and the custom Sibelius files. See the first post in this thread for links to the downloads. (Sibelius 5 users--there is now a set of Sib 5 files that you can use as well.)

The first draft of the tutorial generated a number of very positive comments, including a very detailed list of suggestions from Jonathan Loving of the Sound Set Project (http://soundsets.jonathanloving.com).

Unfortunately, the first draft of the sound set file had a flaw that affected some users--if you were using a particular sound library (Silver Octopus Father Willis series) it would cause all of the stops on the organ console to be turned off as soon as you started (or resumed) playback in Sibelius.

That problem has been resolved in the new sound set, in no small part due to help from Jeremy Sawruk (http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/index.php?sm=account.details&uid=12403).

This version of the sound set has been tested successfully with ten sound libraries:
* St. Annes Moseley (MDA)
* Haverhill OIC (Lavender)
* Groton (Lavender)
* Little Waldingfield (Lavender)
* Albertus Anthoni Hinsz (MDA)
* Schyven-Van Bever (Pipeloops)
* Father Willis Studio 24 (Silver Octopus)
* 310 Wurlitzer Theatre Organ (Paramount Organ Works)
* St. Stephens Penrith (Nicholas Appleton)
* St. Augustine's, Neutral Bay (Nicholas Appleton)

I'm confident the issue has been resolved, but would be delighted to hear from any user regarding their experiences.

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby rogbi200 » Sat May 07, 2011 8:19 am

John
Thanks for your further work on this- I won't be able to test/check here for a day or two, but it sounds as if you have managed to get to the bottom of the problem- is it a solution you can post here or a little too obscure/complicated to describe in brief?

Many thanks anyway

David
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Sat May 07, 2011 1:44 pm

Hi David,

Yes--the answer turned out to be sending a Program Change message with a value of 19. I exported a MIDI file from Sibelius, removed the three lines (one for each channel) that included the program change, and the problem did not happen. I subsequently restored those lines, and the problem returned.

I then changed the value from 19 to 127--and found that the problem did not reappear. I then downloaded every sound set I could reasonably hope to retrieve on a 300 kbps DSL connection and tested with each of them--and the sound set worked flawlessly with each.

John
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby organtechnology » Sat May 07, 2011 2:58 pm

Hi John,

Do you know if the demo version of Sibelius will allow me to test your methods? I have the advanced edition of HW4.

Pax,

Thomas
Complete VPO systems powered by Hauptwerk™. Real Wood Consoles, PC or MAC Computer Sound Modules, Audio for Home or Church.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Sat May 07, 2011 9:47 pm

Thomas,

Alas, I do not have a copy of the demo version of Sibelius 6, in order to be able to determine if you can use a custom sound set and/or playback definition with the demo. The Sibelius web site indicates that a) you cannot save a file with the demo version, and b) that some other features (it does not specify which) are also disabled.

You ought to be able to find out: download the tutorial, and install the files. Load the Sibelius 6 demo, and create a new file--the dialog will ask you if you wish to use a specific Manuscript Paper (think style sheet, page layout, printing definition, and playback configuration all rolled into one). You should see two Hauptwerk options ("Hauptwerk 2 manuals + pedal", "Hauptwerk 3 manuals + pedal") in the list of options.

If you do, then yes--Sibelius is reading from user AppData folders. The rest of the custom Sibelius files will probably work as well.

That said--you're using the Advanced version, which offers considerably more audio output options than Sibelius does. And that poses a significant problem.

You can only use your ASIO audio driver for one application--if you use it for Hauptwerk, to take advantage of the Advanced edition's audio features, you cannot use it for Sibelius. That ASIO driver doesn't just provide excellent audio reproduction--it also provides extremely precise ("low-latency") timing for your sequencer (Sibelius, Sonar, Reaper, et al). If you use a less-precise driver for your sequencer, you'll get a far, far more "expressive" performance than you could possibly want (I refer to it in the tutorial as sounding as though the organist has been "nipping at the communion wine"). But if you use the ASIO driver to provide timing, your only option with Hauptwerk is to route the audio output to the VST Link--which sends output back to the Sibelius Mixer (or another sequencer) which provides stereo output.

I may not have the complete answer on this--I have been amazed to see Martin or Brett appear in a thread to say, "well--the smoke coming from your sound card isn't really a problem; if you'll refer to pp. 241-244 of the manual you'll find that St. Augustine's Neutral Bay is quite high church; just go to General Settings | Advanced Settings | Really Advanced Settings, and uncheck the box labeled 'Use audio card as censor' feature."

Which is to say, Brett and Martin understand the system architecture of the VST Link far better than I could ever hope to--I'm sure they have considered this situation, and that they can give you a better answer than I can.

I very much hope that I'm mistaken in saying that using Sibelius (or another sequencer) to front-end Hauptwerk 4 effectively means that you must route output through the Sibelius Mixer, and thus are limited to stereo output. I'm sure that Martin or Brett will jump in on this and correct my misunderstanding. For many of us stereo output is entirely suitable (my congregation is positively delighted with HW4)--but for an Advanced edition user stereo output might not be sufficient.
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