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Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Connecting Hauptwerk to MIDI organs, sequencers, ...

Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby mdyde » Sun May 08, 2011 7:19 am

Hello John,

If you want to use Hauptwerk (or any other virtual instrument software) with a VST/AU sequencer application (such as Cubase, Logic, Sibelius, etc.) on Windows then you would normally have to have the audio output from the virtual instrument being played through the sequencer, due to the limitations of the ASIO architecture that you mention (i.e. that ASIO only allows one driver to be used at a time, and only by one application at a time).

For generic VST/AU sequencers like Cubase, Logic, Sonar and Reaper that isn't an issue for multi-channel output because the Hauptwerk VST Link is designed to support 32 audio channels (16 stereo pairs) and those VST/AU sequencers support multiple audio outputs from VST/AU instruments, so you can use multi-channel audio output fully.

If Sibelius supports multi-channel audio output from a VST plug-in then (e.g. via its mixer) then that's fine too (I don't know off-hand). However, if Sibelius was limited to a single stereo output from a VST plug-in then that would be a limitation of Sibelius which effectively would just have to be lived with.

On Apple Macs you have more options since OS X has high-performance audio built into it (Core Audio - at least as good as ASIO), and Core Audio doesn't have the single-driver/application limitations of ASIO, and Macs have a built-in audio output that is capable of being used as a reliable low-latency audio clock, so you could potentially use your main audio interface for direct multi-channel audio output from Hauptwerk (without routing audio via VST) and just configure Sibelius to use the built-in audio output, which will give good timing and performance from both applications.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Sun May 08, 2011 4:49 pm

Dear Martin,

Thanks very much for your explanation--it is very helpful.

Sibelius is in an odd position--it was designed for music engraving, but the simple way to proofread music is to provide simple playback. But to properly proofread complex engraving, you have to support complex playback. Support more and more music, and you start to look an awful lot like a MIDI sequencer.

And darn if users like me don't come along and try to do so. Now they're in the awkward position of having to defend why they don't support some specific audio features (the ability to dynamically change the playback rate in small increments, for instance) when they still view their core business as music arrangement and composition.

Thanks for your insight, as always,

John
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby organtechnology » Sun May 08, 2011 10:10 pm

Sibelius 6 Demo has all the save functions disabled. So no joy.

I will need to work on the client's machine directly where there are both installed.

Pax,

Thomas
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby mdyde » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:25 am

A brief follow-up on this thread:

We've added a new set of 'notation convenience' switch MIDI event types, intended for configuration by hand to match hand-entered MIDI events in notation software, for the event types supported by commonly-used notation software including Sibelius, Finale and Noteworthy Composer:

http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8462&p=64562#p64562

The changes will be released formally as part of the forthcoming Hauptwerk v4.0.1. Time allowing, we're also hoping to include new tutorials for how to set up and use them with Sibelius and Finale.
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Next Steps after "Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2"

Postby khrushchev » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:24 am

Let me add my congratulations to John on "Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2". What a great tutorial.

The next challenge for me is to have my Sibelius project include having stops, couplers, etc. automatically set up when playing a piece. I have read the section of the HW User Guide 4.0 on Organ Settings, as well as the reference on MIDI implementation, however I cannot grasp how one establishes the necessary MIDI control changes for engaging and disengaging stops, couplers, divisional pistons (on St. Anne's). MIDI learn does not appear helpful when the only source is the Sibelius Sequencer.

I have also read Mr. Gilberto dos Santos Agostinho Filho's tutorial "Using Hauptwerk with Sibelius 6" which appears to be based on HW3. This appears to be an approach to my problem, but I'm not sure its relevant to HW4, and I don't want to make a mess of things trying to blend John and Gilberto's tutorials.

Could anyone offer suggestions on how I can move forward with this?

Thanks

Rob
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby mdyde » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:51 am

Hello Rob,

My advice is to wait for Hauptwerk v4.0.1, which will include the dedicated the new 'notation convenience' switch MIDI event types I mentioned above, as well as (time allowing) a specific tutorial for how to use Sibelius and Hauptwerk together (including registration changes, etc.) with those new event types.
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Martin.

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:36 am

Rob--

In addition to waiting for Hauptwerk 4.01, you might also carefully consider upgrading to Sibelius 7, which has just been announced:

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/7/index.html

This includes a number of substantial improvements, not the least of which is a 27-stop subset of the Milan Digital Audio Our Lady of Mt. Carmel (Dry) sample library. I have been an active Sibelius user for many years, and I have been working with pre-release versions of Sibelius 7 for several months--focusing almost exclusively on using Sibelius 7 with Hauptwerk 4.

(Digression: what is included in Sibelius 7 are the sounds of the Our Lady of Mt. Carmel sample library--but they are implemented as part of the Sibelius 7 Sound library. You cannot load them into Hauptwerk as an organ. There is also some considerable limitation in how the Sibelius object model (how the bits and pieces fit together under the hood) reflects organ registration. I'm very enthusiastic about Sibelius 7, but the organ implementation in Sibelius 7 Sounds is not Hauptwerk--not by a long shot.)

I am eagerly awaiting Hauptwerk 4.01, in order to be able to explore sending registration commands to Hauptwerk. I'll also be exploring how to make that more user friendly from within Sibelius.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby arco » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:22 am

One warning: Sibelius 7 uses Qt user environment. This means that it will not work with the Wacom mouse anymore!!
And since Qt is not planning to resolve this serious bug, all tablet users will have to use their pen in Sibelius 7.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby arco » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:08 pm

I've got a question about Sibelius and Hauptwerk...
When I have a score with vocals and organ (via Hauptwerk) I notice the vocals sound false. They are one note too high.
I do see the correct MIDI to Hauptwerk (seeing the correct keyboard keys are pressed)

So, how can I make the sounds of Sibelius to sound like they should be? (according that Hauptwerk is at original pitch)
I tried this in Sibelius 6, but now I try the same on Sibelius 7 - with both of these programs the problem was not resolved.

So, please help, so I can use vocals with Hauptwerk organ!
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby mdyde » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:36 pm

Hello Arco,

(First of all I have to admit that I know nothing about vocals in Sibelius, or how they're used, so other people might be better placed to offer more detailed advice.)

If you're using the Hauptwerk VST Link to route audio output from Hauptwerk to Sibelius then the sample rate that the VST host application (Sibelius in this case) is running at must match the native sample rate of the sample set you're using in Hauptwerk, since Hauptwerk intentionally doesn't re-sample its output to different sample rates (for best performance and quality).

Hence if you're using a 48 kHz sample rate sample set and routing the audio output from Hauptwerk to Sibelius via VST then you need the Sibelius project to be set to use 48 kHz as the sample rate too, otherwise the organ will sound at the wrong pitch.

Does that solve it?
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby mdyde » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:40 pm

P.S. I've just had a look in Sibelius 7 and the sample rate setting is adjusted via the 'Audio Engine Options' on the 'Playback devices' screen.
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby arco » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:52 pm

I found it - this does solve the problem. Thanks very much!
Unfortunately I use various organs - some are 48000Hz, others 44100Hz. I cannot change this each time I use Sibelius.
Is it possible to just make this equal?
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby mdyde » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:58 pm

Hello Arco,

Unfortunately I use various organs - some are 48000Hz, others 44100Hz. I cannot change this each time I use Sibelius.


I don't know Sibelius very well - doesn't it store its sample rate setting separately for each Sibelius project? (All other major VST hosts that I'm aware of do.)

Is it possible to just make this equal?


Can you clarify what you're asking? E.g. are you asking us as enhancement request to make Hauptwerk resample its audio output so that it changes it dynamically to Sibelius' sample rate?

If so, we can consider that for the longer term, but doing it well (with sufficient quality and sufficiently-small impact on performance) certainly won't be a trivial amount of work. It also hasn't been necessary in the past, since all other major VST hosts that I'm aware of store the sample rate as a per-project setting.
Best regards,
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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:59 pm

Arco,

First, which organ are you playing?

Second, what vocal sounds are you using? Sibelius 6 Sound Essentials, or Sibelius 7 Sounds? Or something else (such as GPO 4)?

Third--check: how is the organ tuned? To what temperament? The St. Annes Moseley sound set, for instance, is tuned to A=436.5 Hz; what is sometimes called "concert pitch" has A=440 Hz. Your organ sound set may also not default to even temperament; and the voice sounds may be configured for a different temperament (such as stretch, which is common if you're working with orchestral instruments).

You cannot post a Sibelius score here--but you can post it at http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?groupid=3. If you'll post your score, that may help make it easier to get to the bottom of this. (If I don't respond to it there, Daniel will probably give me a nudge.)

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Re: Using Hauptwerk 4 with Sibelius 6.2 (UPDATED)

Postby John Murdoch » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:03 pm

Arco,

I see that you've identified the problem as the sampling rate.

In Sibelius the sampling rate is determined by the playback configuration. If you use different organ sound sets, you should create two different playback configurations--one set for 44.1 Khz, the other for 48 Khz. You can then assign them to different scores as you see fit.

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