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2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

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2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Randall Mullin » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:42 pm

I have recently made a hardware change to my setup. I had originally installed the Motu MicroLite unit in my Hauptwerk setup, following the directions given in the Hauptwerk Sonar tutorial. The MicroLite, a USB unit, was fine, but lately began causing problems, first with the computer (Hauptwerk) not finding it, having me unplug and replug it to get it to work. Then it started to create startup problems. With the MicroLite I was able to record in Hauptwerk and record and play back in Sonar without issues.

I removed the MicroLite from the system and attempted to set up Hauptwerk and Sonar without it. (Sonar has changed quite a bit since the Hauptwerk tutorial was created.) Hauptwerk asked me if I wanted to permanently eliminate the MicroLite from my setup and I said “yes.” Neither Hauptwerk or Sonar ever crashed during this transition.

Hauptwerk (main program) works fine now and records and plays back MIDI without problems. (The problem is I need a MIDI editor from time to time, so I have to work with Sonar or Reaper.)

Now that I am almost ready to make another recording with a WAV created by Sonar (or Reaper) using the Grand Symphonic Cavaillé-Coll Extension, I am not able to get either program to operate properly. Here is what I have experienced so far.

Here is the computer setup: Thinkmate i7 6900K (128 Gbytes ram), Windows 10, with PCI-E RME AIO Hammerfall card/SPDIF out to Benchmark Headphone amp/Analog to Speaker amp. (No external MIDI devices (USB) are used in this setup.)
Hauptwerk 4.2.1.3
Sonar Professional 2017
Reaper 2019 (5.9.8.4) (was installed after I discovered problems with Sonar and Hauptwerk Alt. 1)

Hauptwerk Alt. 1, when set up like Hauptwerk (Main), works exactly like Hauptwerk Main does. (No problems recording or playing back.)

Hauptwerk Alt. 1 and Sonar (Using VST Link)

Haverhill: records and plays back correctly
Grand Symphonic Cavaillé-Coll: records notes and controllers/expression but does not play back anything other than tracker action noises.
Gorlitz records and plays back, but without expression and not all stops that are on a piston are heard (which are heard while making the recording.)
Rotterdam records and plays back, but has the same problem with stops that Gorlitz does.

Hauptwerk Alt 1 and Reaper (Using VST Link)

Haverhill, Gorlitz and Rotterdam (without recording), move the stepper in increments of 2 when the “next” piston is pressed. E.g., 000, 002, 004, 006, etc. (Sonar does not do this).

Haverhill:records and play back correctly (with the exception of the stepper).
Grand Symphonic Cavaillé-Coll: When stops are drawn on Grand Orgue they play on Grand Orgue and Positif; When stops are drawn on the Positif they play on the Positif and Recit (in both cases this is regardless of what keyboard those divisions are assigned to).

Gorlitz (where the Great is on the bottom and the Positiv is second) has this coupling:
Great and Positiv couple stops both ways
Swell and Positiv couple stops both ways.

Rotterdam (where the Great is on the second keyboard from the bottom and Positiv the bottom) has this coupling:
With Great Stops drawn
Swell and Great couple stops both ways

With Positiv stops drawn
Great and Positiv couple both ways.

No floating divisions are involved and this is without recording anything.

I also noticed that when I record in Reaper that instead of the vertical line graphs for expression your see in the picture of the Sonar track view, you just have “syx” for both expression and piston presses and even this does not always appear in the recordings.

If I have to switch to Reaper, I want to make sure that the recordings are of the same quality or better than that of Sonar and if it is possible I want to have recordings in Reaper look like the Sonar recordings in terms of Expression and Program Changes.

I don’t have enough knowledge to even ascertain if the problem is Hauptwerk or the Reaper/Sonar settings involved. If your would take a look at the pictures and let me know what to try I would be very grateful.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0JC4z2f ... cLZzW8FGNw

Randy Mullin
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Hartley Mays » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:08 pm

Randy,

I gave up on Cakewalk/Sonar years ago so I can't help with it, but I'll try on the Reaper side.

I have a Rodgers 535 Organ connected to a Windows 7 system running Windows 7, and have Reaper and Hauptwerk working well together, although it's certainly been confusing at times, and I haven't reviewed the setup in a while. I'm able to record audio and midi in Reaper, and can also set stops on the organs from Reaper.

One thing I'm not clear on is from where and how the midi keyboard input is coming into the computer?

What changes do you make in Alt Config 1 to run it with Reaper active? It can't share the ASIO device.

One thing that looks odd to me is having both the AIO Midi and the HW VST link assigned as input. Try using one at a time and see what the results are. I'll experiment tomorrow with setting both on my system tomorrow.

Later,
Hartley
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Randall Mullin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:52 am

Hartley,

Many thanks for your response. I should say at the outset that I am a musician and am not very technically savvy. I can follow directions, however.

For example, if you tell me to check in Reaper track view the drop down menu on the track named “Hauptwerk VST Link 6” that currently has “MIDI:All: All Channels” selected, I can do that. The same goes for the track named “HW 01/02” with “AIO SPDIF (L) (record)” selected, I can do that. If something is in a menu, if you would tell me the menu and the item in question, I can check that.

You can tell, I think, from pictures, how I have configured my Reaper/Hauptwerk setup. (Although I am sorry that the pictures are out of order because of the iCloud link)

Regarding, how the keyboard stack and the computer connect to one another, the keyboards/pedalboard are daisy chained together and the last MIDI cable is plugged into the MIDI IN breakout connector from the AIO sound card. The digital out (SPDIF) from the sound card is then connected to Benchmark headphone amp.

All of this currently works in Hauptwerk (Main program) where I able to play and record/play back MIDI with any sample set without problems.
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Hartley Mays » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:29 pm

Randy,

So you're not using the ASIO4All third party device driver at all? That's good news. As far as I know it needs to be avoided and I don't use it at all.

Yes, please send jpg's of Reaper's I/O config windows for the tracks involved.

When you have time, as I suggested yesterday, try changing the Midi In ports in HW to only use one and then the other option and see what results you get. My understanding is that the Console In is used to allow Hauptwerk to "own" the organ, and the Sequencer In allows Reaper to own it. I've used each of these options individually and gotten things to work, but never both of them at the same time; I'll try it here later today.

Are the sysex commands you see in the recorded midi data from your organ or from Hauptwerk? I think they must be from the organ. You can view them using the midi editor in Reaper and choosing its Event List view.

Good luck,
Hartley
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Randall Mullin » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:49 pm

Hi Hartley,

I found out that the problem was in my Reaper settings. I had set the MIDI Devices/AIO MIDI setting to “Enabled” and they have to be “Disabled.” I am now able to record and play back MIDI correctly.

I am wondering, however, if there is a way to show the Expression and Piston changes (Program Changes) in the Track view (like in the Sonar track photo that I included), instead of all of the “syx” marks that you see in my Reaper track setting.

Again, many thanks for your help!

Randy
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Hartley Mays » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:20 am

Randy,

That's good news, glad to hear it. I think that this change relates directly to my discussion of the Console In vs Sequencer In option, and the fact that the Console In means that Hauptwerk "owns" the physical organ rather than Reaper. Again, you can try removing the Console In selection and leaving the VST In selected, with the midi input from the physical organ track routed to the HW VST Link, and see if that also works correctly.

This relates to how to show the expression and piston changes in the track view. Are you referring to changes in your physical organ or to the virtual Hauptwerk organ, or both? It's all possible, but to see the physical organ changes in Reaper, it will need to have control of the organ rather than Hauptwerk. What you can record and view in either case is the Hauptwerk midi for the virtual organ. You can view it in either CC lanes in the midi editor piano roll view, or using the Event List view as I mentioned above.

Later,
Hartley
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Randall Mullin » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:55 pm

Hi Hartley,

Thanks again, for your responses.

If you look at the Sonar track view picture in my first message you will see a vertical line graph for expression pedal changes. You will also see a little square with a P followed by a number for Piston (program change) messages.

When I open the physical swell pedal(s) on my Hauptwerk console setup during recording, Sonar records the Vertical line graph with the longest lines expressing the open position of the Swell Pedal. When I press a piston on my “console” it appears as a box with an P followed by a number. This is helpful to see because if, for example, I miss a piston press in the recording I can watch the track go by and, with overdubbing, I can insert the piston press in the place where I missed it. This prevents me from having to re-record a perfectly good performance because of a missed piston press.

In contrast, the way that Reaper is setup while recording in track view, I see syxsyxsyxsyxsyxsyxsyx for a expression pedal movement and syx, by itself, for a piston (program) change. If both a piston change and an expression change occur at the same time, it is impossible to look at the track view and tell the difference.

During the recording playback process, the recorded instructions in Reaper control the stops, expression, and piston presses in Hauptwerk. I hope that what I have described above will answer your questions. As I said, I do not understand this, but I can follow instructions.

If it is easily possible to set up Reaper to graphically act like Sonar in this regard, it would be very helpful.
Randall Mullin
Hauptwerk 4/Classic MidiWorks tutorial (http://www.randallmullin.com/Hauptwerk%20Experience.pdf)
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Erzahler » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:15 pm

Maybe wait for the new version V and hope that sorts it all out.
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Re: 2019 Sonar and Reaper problems

Postby Hartley Mays » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:05 am

Randy,

It's not clear to me why Sonar is showing Program Change CC's for the piston changes, and Reaper Sysex, unless Sonar is recording and showing the midi from the physical organ, and Reaper is showing the midi generated internally?

To accomplish what you want to do with Reaper, you'll need to work with the midi editor. This can be done within the track view by using the inline midi editor rather than the full, separate version. I would strongly encourage you to watch a couple of the videos on the Reaper website to get acquainted with it. The videos are very concise and focused, and clearly show the screens and steps being illustrated. From the home page, select the "Videos" link, then expand the second category on the right, "Midi & Virtual Instruments". Scroll down to the "Editing" topic and watch the "Inline Midi Editor" and "Midi Editor Preferences" videos. Once we get that background covered, it will be straightforward and easy to make changes to your midi file, and we can work through that.

Later,
Hartley
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