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Recording Audio Problem

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Christoff

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Recording Audio Problem

PostMon Aug 29, 2016 1:52 pm

Using Salisbury sampleset I have created several Midi files which are prefect copies of the live performance.
I have then created audio files using the Hauptwerk audio record function and playing the Midi file ( using aux mix-down output). This works perfectly except that on some occasions all playing on the swell suddenly reduces in volume and after a while returns to the correct 'performance' volume. Problem only on the swell. Great,Choir,Solo and Pedal all perfect.
Anyone any ideas what might be causing this ?

Chris M
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csw900

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostMon Aug 29, 2016 4:12 pm

How do you know that the midi files you have created from a live performance are
"Perfect Copies" when they clearly do not play correctly.

It seems to me that you may have a problem in recording the swell pedal position.

A Hauptwerk organ can play a midi file and record both another midi file and a .wav
file all simultaneously.

csw900
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Christoff

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 1:31 am

Thanks for your reply. Perhaps I haven't explained very well. The Midi files do play perfectly - identical to the live performance. The problem is with the audio/wav file Hauptwerk has made whilst the Midi file is playing. There is a marked diminution in the volume of the swell which is not present on the Midi file. I think you might be right that it is something to do with the recording of the swell pedal position. I have watched the swell pedal indicator and this stays in the fully open position at the point where the playing on the swell decreases sharply on the audio/wav file.
I have re-recorded a couple of times and the same problem occurs at exactly the same point.
Not sure where I go after this.
Chris M
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csw900

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 2:39 am

Hi Chris

A very useful clarification!

Your problem indicates that there is something wrong with the Hauptwerk .wav recorder (which
may be triggered by something in the midi file such as illegal midi events perhaps coming from
a faulty or noisy swell pedal).

I know that this recorder can sometimes suffer from very large impulses, much higher amplitude
than the normal recording level (which is sampleset dependent). I have no idea what causes
the impulses.

Can you use an audio editor to look at the recorded waveform at the point where the problem
occurs? You may see a large very brief pulse or if not you may see some other obvious
imperfection.

csw900
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mdyde

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 3:24 am

Hello Christoff,

Christoff wrote:Thanks for your reply. Perhaps I haven't explained very well. The Midi files do play perfectly - identical to the live performance. The problem is with the audio/wav file Hauptwerk has made whilst the Midi file is playing. There is a marked diminution in the volume of the swell which is not present on the Midi file. I think you might be right that it is something to do with the recording of the swell pedal position. I have watched the swell pedal indicator and this stays in the fully open position at the point where the playing on the swell decreases sharply on the audio/wav file.
I have re-recorded a couple of times and the same problem occurs at exactly the same point.


I wonder whether perhaps your MIDI console is periodically sending occasional MIDI messages to Hauptwerk that's unintentionally affecting something (e.g. an expression pedal). The fact that it occurs at exactly the same point makes that seem relatively unlikely, but it's definitely worth checking anyway:

If your MIDI console is connected to the computer using physical traditional MIDI leads, then please try disconnecting all of those leads temporarily, and also turning off the power to the console completely (in case the console is somehow affecting an amplifier level or something similar). Does the MIDI file then play back properly in Hauptwerk?

If not, or if your MIDI console is instead connected via direct USB leads, then exit Hauptwerk, temporarily disconnect all MIDI/USB leads from the computer, turn the console off, and launch Hauptwerk via a previously-unused 'Hauptwerk (alt config N)' desktop short-cut. Those separate configurations (desktop short-cuts) have completely independent settings, so the intention is to eliminate any possibility of a non-default setting affecting something. When the wizards run upon launch, don't enable/tick any MIDI ports at all, and select just a single stereo audio output on your audio interface (its ASIO driver, if Windows), so as to try to eliminate any possibility of issues relating to separate amplifiers with multi-channel output, and to try to eliminate any possibility of issues relating to VST/AU/effects, etc.. Load the Salisbury and play back the MIDI file. Does it then play back properly?

csw900 wrote:Your problem indicates that there is something wrong with the Hauptwerk .wav recorder (which
may be triggered by something in the midi file such as illegal midi events perhaps coming from
a faulty or noisy swell pedal).

I know that this recorder can sometimes suffer from very large impulses, much higher amplitude
than the normal recording level (which is sampleset dependent). I have no idea what causes
the impulses.

Can you use an audio editor to look at the recorded waveform at the point where the problem
occurs? You may see a large very brief pulse or if not you may see some other obvious
imperfection.


Hello csw900,

I can assure you there are absolutely no known faults in Hauptwerk's audio recorder, and it's been used very intensively by a lot of people for many years, so I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about (and would thus have rectified) any that might have existed.

If you decide to buy a licence for Hauptwerk in the future, then we can look into this for you. (I already spent quite a number of hours looking into a previous issue for you, which you mistakenly thought was as a bug in Hauptwerk, and we do have to make a living -- sorry!)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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IainStinson

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 4:29 am

Do you use multiple audio outputs?

Are your mixing these down to provide the output you use for audio recording? (HW manual pg 164 and following and pg 167 2nd para)

If you are using multiple audio outputs, you need to EITHER record each of them (in which case HW creates multiple wav files (one for each audio output for which recording is enabled) OR create a mix down of ALL the audio outputs and send this to the HW recorder (and ensure the other audio outputs are not enabled for recording).

Another possibility is that the level of your swell division when playing live (or midi) is higher because the gain on parts of the system external to HW is higher than the gain for other outputs. By "external to HW" I mean the audio card output level, levels of power amp or amps in speakers or different amps). This would play the midi file at the same level as a live performance - however this would not be reflected when replaying the wav file created by the audio recorder - hence making the swell division could sound softer in the recording.

Good luck.

I make regular use of the HW audio and midi recorders and have not problems with them (in a multi output channel environment).

Iain
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csw900

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 1:45 pm

Hi Martin

Nice to hear from you again.

I think it would be wise to see whether Christoff is able to find the cause of his problem before
drawing any conclusions about possible spikes in his .wav files.

I have absolutely no interest in whether you look into this or not. However if you need
details of what I was doing when I found the spikes please send me a private email. We can
then discuss my fee for providing the information -- I am retired and have to live too. :D

csw900
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organtechnology

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 2:14 pm

csw900 wrote:Hi Martin

Nice to hear from you again.

I think it would be wise to see whether Christoff is able to find the cause of his problem before
drawing any conclusions about possible spikes in his .wav files.

I have absolutely no interest in whether you look into this or not. However if you need
details of what I was doing when I found the spikes please send me a private email. We can
then discuss my fee for providing the information -- I am retired and have to live too. :D

csw900


I think there will be snowstorms in the Congo before that happens.:)
Complete Hauptwerk™ systems using real wood consoles, PC Sound Engines, Dante Audio for Home or Church. info (at) organtechnology.com http://www.organtechnology.com
Authorized Hauptwerk; Milan Digital Audio and Lavender Audio reseller.
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Christoff

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 3:08 pm

Ian, thanks for your reply - I am using the HW mix-down exactly as detailed in the HW manual. However, it is good to know that you use the Midi and Audio record facilities regularly without a problem.

Martin - many thanks for your detailed reply - You have helped me with several problems in the past most successfully and I am sure we will get this sorted. One thing I should perhaps stress is that the MIDI files always play without a problem, it's only the audio file that exhibits the 'quiet' Swell problem.
I am increasingly coming to think that the Swell pedal is somehow the rogue/culprit. The connection from the console is by Midi cable to an M-Audio 4 x 4 Midisport USB box and then by USB cable to the computer. This has indicator lights for each channel and I have noticed that the light on the Swell pedal channel is off when the Swell pedal is open but continually 'burbles' for want of a better description when the Pedal is shut. Doesn't seem to affect anything when playing live but maybe some 'noise' in there somewhere is affecting the creation of the Audio file.
Bearing this in mind I thought my first check might be to play the Midi file and re-record the Audio file but with the Swell pedal un-connected. Is there an easy way to make sure the Swell is fully open in HW when I do this ?
By the way, confession time - Perhaps I should mention that because everything has worked just fine I have been reluctant to upgrade and am still on 4.0.0 - could this have any bearing on the matter

Regards and thanks for your help

Chris M
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mdyde

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 3:30 am

Christoff wrote:Martin - many thanks for your detailed reply - You have helped me with several problems in the past most successfully and I am sure we will get this sorted. One thing I should perhaps stress is that the MIDI files always play without a problem, it's only the audio file that exhibits the 'quiet' Swell problem.
I am increasingly coming to think that the Swell pedal is somehow the rogue/culprit. The connection from the console is by Midi cable to an M-Audio 4 x 4 Midisport USB box and then by USB cable to the computer. This has indicator lights for each channel and I have noticed that the light on the Swell pedal channel is off when the Swell pedal is open but continually 'burbles' for want of a better description when the Pedal is shut. Doesn't seem to affect anything when playing live but maybe some 'noise' in there somewhere is affecting the creation of the Audio file.
Bearing this in mind I thought my first check might be to play the Midi file and re-record the Audio file but with the Swell pedal un-connected. Is there an easy way to make sure the Swell is fully open in HW when I do this ?
By the way, confession time - Perhaps I should mention that because everything has worked just fine I have been reluctant to upgrade and am still on 4.0.0 - could this have any bearing on the matter

Regards and thanks for your help
Chris,

Thanks, Chris.

Yes -- please do upgrade to the current version (v4.2.1, which is available on our downloads page: http://www.downloadhauptwerk.com/ ) before trying anything else. There are many, many enhancements and fixes between v4.0.0 and v4.2.1, which could easily be relevant. (Also v4.0.0 is a very old version that was de-supported about five years ago.)

If that doesn't fix it, then please try the tests I suggested above. Temporarily disconnecting all MIDI leads between your console and your MIDISPORT interface should be an easy way to see whether your MIDI expression pedal (or any other part of your console) is the culprit.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Christoff

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 4:19 am

Thanks Martin - I rather suspected that would be your answer and quite rightly too. Anyway - that's my homework sorted for the afternoon.
Chris M
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mdyde

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 4:43 am

Thanks, Chris.

Hope the homework isn't too taxing!
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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csw900

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Re: Recording Audio Problem

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 3:58 pm

organtechnology wrote:
I think there will be snowstorms in the Congo before that happens.:)


Check out Mount Stanley in the Eastern Congo, it's covered with snow the year round

csw900

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