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Question on minor master volume issues

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TimM

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Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 2:47 pm

I just successfully configured my LaunchPad Mini Mark 2 to act as a master volume control, so I can make my Swell expression pedal be a real Swell pedal, no longer master volume. This made my wife very happy. :) I did this by assigning one button to the '0 db' trim reset (so I always have a known reference point to return to, the 'normal' organ volume), one button to '1 db down' and one button to '1 db up'. This all works perfectly. But I have two minor issues with this:

1) With the trim set to 0 db and the master volume at 100 (where I will probably leave it, as the user can't go up from here), I have to go to the Audio Outputs window and set the Speaker Level to -15 db for every output group in order to keep the audio output meter in the green for very large registrations. It sounds fine, but this is such an extreme value that I wonder if I'm doing something wrong, although I sure can't see what.

2) It would be really nice if when the organ is finished loading, Hauptwerk could issue an internal command to 'press' this trim reset piston, so it would always start at the standard reference point. In fact, while I'm wishing, there are certain Master Couplers that I wish would be set on at startup. Is there a way to do this? In my ideal and most general situation, the user could hit a button that in effect starts a macro recorder running. The user then presses whatever pistons and stops he/she wants and then stops the macro recorder. Whatever things the user did in this macro recording would always run at startup. Sorry... maybe this should have gone into the requests bin, but there are so many features that I don't know about yet that I'm hoping something akin to this already exists.

Tim
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mdyde

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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 3:12 pm

Hello Tim,

TimM wrote:1) With the trim set to 0 db and the master volume at 100 (where I will probably leave it, as the user can't go up from here), I have to go to the Audio Outputs window and set the Speaker Level to -15 db for every output group in order to keep the audio output meter in the green for very large registrations. It sounds fine, but this is such an extreme value that I wonder if I'm doing something wrong, although I sure can't see what.


It will just depend on the overall amplitude level that the sample set creator configured as the default. Your adjustments would be relative to that.

TimM wrote:2) It would be really nice if when the organ is finished loading, Hauptwerk could issue an internal command to 'press' this trim reset piston, so it would always start at the standard reference point.


Just for future reference, this is the intended place to submit enhancement requests: https://www.hauptwerk.com/forms/suggestions/ .

However, in this case, I think we'd have to say that we probably wouldn't want to undertake that one, since I'd be almost certain that nobody else would want to use it that way -- sorry.

TimM wrote:In fact, while I'm wishing, there are certain Master Couplers that I wish would be set on at startup. Is there a way to do this? In my ideal and most general situation, the user could hit a button that in effect starts a macro recorder running. The user then presses whatever pistons and stops he/she wants and then stops the macro recorder.


Master couplers can't be defaulted to on, and there isn't a user macro/programming language/facility, I'm afraid. However, you could perhaps you could achieve something somewhat similar by programming the Master Reversibles for some of your tasks.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 4:12 pm

Unfortunately, the right starting trim will be different by sample set. So a "reset to 0" will be basically useless. SP organs default trim to -10, but that still has to be adjusted.

Trim is meant to be a fixed setting you work out for each instrument to sound full but undistorted on your speakers at volume 100. Then you slide volume down if you need to mute because the cat is sleeping on the subwoofer.

Your up and down buttons may work out okay, if you let the organ load with the saved trim you figured out for that instrument instead of using an arbitrary reset.

You can get a midi controller with a slider to use the volume.

Setting channel audio levels to -15 may prove too low for some samplesets, since upward adjustment of trim is more limited than downward. Some organs may be too quiet af max trim with a -15 dB loss baked in.
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TimM

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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 4:35 pm

Thank you for all that information. Luckily, we pretty much use just one instrument, Rotterdam, so I can set up everything catering to that. I am slowly working on getting Caen up as an alternative, but that's also from Sonus, so might be close enough. And if not, I'll just use an alternate Hauptwerk configuration for Caen.

I'd love a MIDI controller with a slider, but I'm still looking for something really small. The LaunchPad mini is the upper limit on size, and a nice thing about it is that I can give my wife a bunch more combinations. But I'm looking... I plan a trip to a big music store next week.

>> Trim is meant to be a fixed setting you work out for each instrument to sound full but undistorted on your speakers at volume 100. Then you slide volume down if you need to mute because the cat is sleeping on the subwoofer. <<

This is almost what I'm doing, except that I'm using the speaker levels, with the trim set to 0, and with the volume being 'normal' which is considerably less than max. That way, for any given instrument (we'll have at most two) I just reset the trim to zero with the LaunchPad and get the most likely volume we will want. We can trim it up or down with the other two buttons.

A real root of the problem is that due to the fact that the computer screen is small and far from the organist, reaching to the computer to adjust things is very difficult. It's almost a headless system, in practice. I have to stand up beside the organ to get easy access to the computer. So I need controls close at hand.

Thank you very much for taking the time for such a thoughtful and detailed response. I really am grateful for all the help I get here as I learn this marvelous software.

Tim
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 6:09 pm

TimM wrote:With the trim set to 0 db and the master volume at 100... I have to go to the Audio Outputs window and set the Speaker Level to -15 db for every output group in order to keep the audio output meter in the green for very large registrations


This makes sense. But most people do it the other way... leave all their speakers on all their outputs at the standard default, and trim the trim accordingly so it sounds right. That's why it's called "trim"... just one thing to trim per Organ Sample Set, and everything else is all ready to go.

That would work fine with your Launchpad device as well, if you just reprogram the reset so it gives (for example) "-15" instead of "0". Then this becomes your known reference point with regard to Organ Volume. And you never have to mess with the levels for your speakers or output channels, even when changing organs (which you will assuredly want to do from time to time).
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TimM

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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 6:33 pm

>> you just reprogram the reset so it gives (for example) "-15" instead of "0" <<

Wow, this is EXACTLY what I wanted to do, as it makes the most sense, but I could not figure out how to do it and came to the conclusion that I can't. How does one program the reset to be something other than zero?
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 7:15 pm

TimM wrote:Wow, this is EXACTLY what I wanted to do, as it makes the most sense, but I could not figure out how to do it and came to the conclusion that I can't. How does one program the reset to be something other than zero?


It can certainly be done, although I do not know exactly how. If a single keystroke on the LaunchPad could say "Reset trim to zero then reduce by 1 db for 15 times in a row", you'd be all set. The LaunchPad itself may not know how to send a "Macro" like that, but what if it sends a signal to a third party program to intercept the MIDI signal and translate it by then sending the necessary sequence to get the Hauptwerk program to do what you want?

Maybe that program would only intercept that one signal. Or maybe it would pass all other signals through unchanged. Certainly such programs do exist, although I am not in a position to recommend one in particular. Perhaps others here would know... especially those who use the LaunchPad regularly for various purposes...
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 7:21 pm

TimM wrote:Whatever things the user did in this macro recording would always run at startup.


If you got a third-party MIDI Translator set up (as suggested in the previous Post), then these wishes too could be fulfilled by pressing a single button on the LaunchPad... triggering the macro in the Translator and then setting up Hauptwerk just the way you like!
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 7:51 pm

TimM wrote:Whatever things the user did in this macro recording would always run at startup.


Of course, a General Combination Piston could do a lot of this for you as well... in particular, setting some combination of Couplers. It wouldn't happen automatically on startup, but still having a single button take care of the set-up could be desirable.
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 8:15 pm

Hey Tim:

Reviewing you console pictures, I assume you have your swell shoes attached to a MIDI encoder. You might want to check and see if you can add a 3rd potentiometer to it. My Artisan MicoroMidi can handle 4 potentiometers. If so you can wire up a slider or rotary pot, attach it to your console (maybe in an inconspicuous spot), then auto detect the HW Audio Volume control.

I have a few rotary knobs on my top keyboard MIDI controller and I've mapped one to this HW volume slider.
Once in a great while, a sample set I use may need a little volume boost or when entertaining with a group of organ and music friends, I'll need to lower the volume a bit when 'Frank Fortissimo' is on the bench. :shock: It's real handy being able to make these adjustments quickly.

Danny B.
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 8:21 pm

OrganoPleno wrote:Of course, a General Combination Piston could do a lot of this for you as well...


Or try a "Scoped" Combination... a Piston which affects ONLY the Couplers, and is pre-set to give the Combination that you wish.

That's one great thing about Organs... there are so many good ways to do things!
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 4:53 am

>> You might want to check and see if you can add a 3rd potentiometer to it. <<

Yes, in fact it can handle up to 8 pots, and I'm using only two. So adding a pot is a possibility. The problem is appearance. I have this console 'finished' the way my wife and I want, and I hate to go drilling a hole in it somewhere to mount a pot. But it certainly would do exactly what I want.

Luckily, changing master volume is something that we would do only rarely. By having 'zero' be preset to be 'normal' volume, we will use that most of the time. The only times we would want to change the master volume is to show it off to a guest or to play a big registration quietly to save our ears or not disturb someone else. Those things don't happen often enough to make a big deal of this. At least for now, the LaunchPad solution of adjusting the trim is a satisfactory solution, if not ideal.
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 5:47 am

Hello Tim,

In answer to the enhancement request that you've just submitted (since it's effectively part of this topic, and to avoid people replying in duplicate):

TimM wrote:A macro facility, especially for startup, would let me do many things I want that can't be done now. I suspect that more advanced users would find even more uses for it.

...

The most important of these would be Startup, which would let the user program one or more 'default' conditions that are not currently allowed in Hauptwerk.

In my case, it would be great to start by having appropriate divisions of the five-manual-division Rotterdam coupled to my two-manual console.
And for the Caen organ, some foot levers must be engaged before certain ranks will play. It apparently is not possible to have these levers on by default, leading to possible confusion of the organist. A startup macro would let a Caen user set these levers to be 'On' at startup.
Also, for users like me who have systems with awkward computer access and software-only volume control, a startup macro would let me initialize the volume to be reasonable.

I'm sure that other users would come up with even more exotic uses for macros.

Tim


Thanks for the suggestions.

- With regard to the volume: Hauptwerk's volume slider is specifically intended for dynamic volume control, whereas the 'trim' setting is specifically designed to be set statically (so as to balance relative levels between sample sets) and then not be changed. Hence for your purposes you need to be using the volume slider, not the trim setting. The trim setting is the wrong tool for the job. I appreciate that you're a bit reluctant to put an extra knob on your console for aesthetic reasons, but if you want to have that ability then that's what you really need to do (or put a volume knob or pedal somewhere else that you can access it). (If not having a MIDI knob is really, really that important to you, then I suppose you could even make a set of MIDI pistons that send a range of MIDI CC values for the same MIDI CC number and MIDI channel, so that they behaved together as if they were a single MIDI knob/pedal.)

- With regard to macros is general: why not just store your desired 'starting registration' (Caen levers, etc.) to a single master general piston? You would then only have one piston to press whenever you loaded that organ. I'll log as an enhancement request that Hauptwerk could have an organ preference to trigger a particular master general automatically when the organ is loaded/reset, which I think would be a much more 'organ-like' approach than macros, and useful to a much larger range of Hauptwerk users. If we add features to Hauptwerk we want them to be accessible and beneficial to everyone, not just the minority who are technically-inclined.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 am

>> why not just store your desired 'starting registration' (Caen levers, etc.) to a single master general piston? <<

Martin - That's what I'm doing right now, so in that particular case it's no big deal, although it would be nice. Any general piston that is dedicated to startup would be one less piston available to the organist for registration, and one more thing for the organist to remember to do. I'm a professional programmer, so macros are natural for me. Maybe not so much for other users.

As for controlling master volume, is there any serious technical difference between fixing the trim and varying the slider, versus fixing the slider and varying the trim? Of course I have no idea about the inner workings of Hauptwerk, but my guess is that the final volume is just the sum of the slider and the trim, so it would not matter which is fixed and which can be varied by the user. Again, no big deal, as the setup I have now is working fine for me and will do until I figure out a better way.

Thank you for being so attentive to a pain-in-the-butt like me. I'm closing in on having this tweaked to my satisfaction, at which point I'll probably mostly go away and be less of a bother!


Tim
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Re: Question on minor master volume issues

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 7:05 am

Hello Tim,

TimM wrote:Martin - That's what I'm doing right now, so in that particular case it's no big deal, although it would be nice. Any general piston that is dedicated to startup would be one less piston available to the organist for registration


There are lots of master pistons of other types (e.g. master scoped combinations and stepper frames), and if we did add a function to Hauptwerk to be able to trigger a piston automatically when the organ was loaded then you wouldn't need to tie up a physical piston for the purpose.

TimM wrote:As for controlling master volume, is there any serious technical difference between fixing the trim and varying the slider, versus fixing the slider and varying the trim? Of course I have no idea about the inner workings of Hauptwerk, but my guess is that the final volume is just the sum of the slider and the trim, so it would not matter which is fixed and which can be varied by the user. Again, no big deal, as the setup I have now is working fine for me and will do until I figure out a better way.


There are no differences in audio quality between adjusting either one (effectively they just add together), but the master volume is designed to be entirely a real-time adjustment, whereas the act of changing the trim setting has some non-trivial overheads, so it wouldn't really be advisable to be doing it whilst actively playing, for example. (Also it can only be changed in discrete steps, whereas the master volume is continuous.) The trim is effectively designed and optimised as a preference (setting), not a real-time control.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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