Sound retard [brief silence with MOTU AVB interface]

Hello there, I recently bought two samples from OAM, the Poblet and the Ducroquet-Cavaille Coll, with both when loading the organ via load organ, there is no problem with the loading but when that is finish and the console appear, there is no sound at all, it comes up after 30 to 45 seconds, it only happens with this two samples (doesn't happen with The J.A Silbermann from Arlesheim, with this the sound comes up right after the console appear) does anybody knows what may happen, thank you.

[mdyde]

Hello Atugores,

My first guess would be that perhaps those sample sets are over-filling the computer's RAM, resulting in the computer becoming extremely slow due to operating system 'paging'. If you'd like to send us a diagnostic file ( https://www.hauptwerk.com/forms/support/ ) then I could have a look to see whether that does indeed appear to be the cause.

Thank you, I did send two reports one with Poblet and the other with Ducroquet, Just to add something If I start the sound card (Motu) then the computer (mac mini i7 quad core, 16 Gas ram) and stay a while without launching HW, say 10 minutes, then launch and load organ, than it works fine, so it looks to me like if the sample search for audio system or similar, thank you.

[mdyde]

Hello Atugores,

Thanks for the diagnostic files. There's no indication of anything behaving incorrectly, slowly, or unexpectedly in any other way, within Hauptwerk itself from the logs.

However, I've recently bought two MOTU 16A AVB interfaces, so as to be able to test multi-channel audio properly with AVB networking, so I tried setting up the Ducroquet sample set with them on my 16 GB Mac laptop (similar in specifications to your Mac Mini), and I can see the problem (which isn't related to RAM):

When an organ has finished loading, Hauptwerk asks the audio driver to start at the sample rate that the sample set requires, which is 48 kHz in the case of the most sample sets (including the Poblet), but 44.1 kHz in the case case of the Ducroquet.

If my MOTU AVB interfaces are asked to change to a new sample rate then the sample rate shown on the hardware changes immediately, and no errors or other indications are given, but they stop producing sound for approximately 15 seconds (in my case -- I timed it). I.e. it appears to take about 15 seconds before the sample rate change fully takes effect. The issue can actually be reproduced just by switching back and forth between any two sample sets that use different sample rates (such as the normal 44.1 kHz organ definition for St. Anne's and the 48 kHz version). You probably only encountered it recently because until recently all of the sample sets you were using were the same sample rate (48 kHz); it was only after you started sometimes using the Ducroquet that the sample rates needed to change.

You could perhaps try contacting MOTU to see whether they can, or plan to, address the issue (i.e. to make their AVB interfaces respond more quickly to a sample rate change) in a future driver or firmware update. (Please do let us know the results if you do contact them.) However, in the meantime unfortunately it's probably something that you just need to be aware of whenever you switch between the Ducroquet and any of your other sample sets.

Unless MOTU plan to address it, in the longer term we may need to look at making Hauptwerk able to play sample sets designed for one sample rate able to be played at other sample rates, so that AVB audio interfaces would no longer need to change sample rates at all. (Hauptwerk wasn't designed that way originally because converting sample rates in real-time to a very high quality potentially involves additional CPU overheads and some trade-off in audio quality and/or latency if resampling from a higher sample rate to a lower one, due to the need for an anti-aliasing filter.)

[mdyde]

[P.S. I've edited the topic title slightly, so that other people using MOTU AVB interfaces might find it more easily.]

Thank you, everything is correc,t I tried with Ducroquet and Poblet and the issue repeats, in my case timed is also 15 to 20 seconds, everything works normal changing from one sample at 48 to another of 48, so I thank you very much for your help, what upset me is that even buying one of the best audio inteface doesn't mean you will get the best results, with an older one I use to have before MOTU I did not notice an issue like this. Thanks.

[mdyde]

Thanks, Atugores,

I imagine that MOTU's primary market is professional recording studios (and similar installations), in which probably the same sample rate would be used all of the time.

Hi Martin, I have some news about these issue, news from my investigation, my MOTU AVB may be connected to the computer via Ethernet, I suppose for installations that need to place the interface far away from the console, with ethernet you can go 100 meters away, this is not my case, my mac is 30 cms away from the Motu and everything is connected via USB (USB is necessary in any case for MIDI), anyway all the system was working via USB only, today I connect the System Via Ethernet and USB (needed for MIDI), after seting all for Ethernet (which drive me crazy and tooks almost 1 and 1/2 hour, manual is not clear enough) I start HW and load Poblet sample, the Motu shows 48 and the sample is 48, after that I load Ducroquet the Motu still shows 48 and the sound comes up inmediatly, I did the same with different sample and works perfect, no problem, as I said the Motu shows 48 always independently of the sample 44.1 or 48)
I do not understand, now I'm confuse, the MOTU user guide say anything about this.

[mdyde]

Hello Atugores,

Thanks for the update. I think you'd probably need to contact MOTU's technical support for a definitive answer on what might be happening there.

[In my case, one of my MOTU 16As is connected to my Mac (only) by USB, and the second 16A is connected (only) to the first 16A, (only) by an RJ45 Ethernet cable. Neither is connected directly or indirectly to the Internet via any Ethernet connection, although the Mac itself is connected to the Internet.]

Hi Martin, those are the MOTU answer.

Added by Andrew on 2017/04/20 19:59:19 Universal
State change from 'Awaiting reply' to 'In progress'
Hi Antonio,

It sounds like this is a specific issue related to the hauptwerk software.

To confirm the function of your Audio interface, please follow these instructions for setting up a basic loop test:

1.) Connect your Audio interface to your Mac.

2.) Open your DAW, create a new project and add two audio tracks. Import any audio file to the first track. Set the first track's output analog 1.

3.) Physically connect a cable from analog output 1 to analog input 1 on the interface.

4.) Set the input of the second audio track to analog 1.

5.) Record enable the second track and record. The audio on track one will be recorded on track two. Note* certain DAWs will require a track to have both an input and output to be selected for recording. If this is the case, make sure you set the output of the second track to an unused output to a avoid any feedback loops. In Logic, you don't need just an input or output.

6.) Repeat step 5 for each of your outputs (or inputs) on the interface you suspect is problematic. If the recorded audio on track two sounds clean, we can conclude that the problem is likely elsewhere in your setup.

Keep me posted.

Thanks,
Andrew


Added by Antonio on 2017/04/21 07:55:26 Universal
I am not using a DAW I am using the Motu as an interface audio only with Hauptwerk, so I can not experiment with the instructions you explain.
There is a sound retard, a silence on 20 seconds going from an organ sample 44.1 to one of 48.0 and viceversa.
Maybe there is something you can do in the next software update to avoid this?.
All you explain does not clarifie the issue.
Thanks.

Added by Andrew on 2017/04/21 14:00:34 Universal
Last edited by Andrew on 2017/04/21 14:00:55 Universal
Antonio,

Unfortunately, without testing in a different software environment we will be limiting our testing resources. When the organ samples are changed from 44.1khz to 48khz, does this require the audio system to switch sampling rates? Or does Hauptwerks do a real time sample rate conversion? Changing the hardware's sample rate will require the unit to re-clock. Any audio interface will take a brief moment to re-clock. It will never be seamless.

Also, why are you changing sample rates between samples? This is not a good idea.

Thanks,
Andrew
Edit
Added by Antonio on 2017/04/21 15:04:57 Universal
This is understood, every sample is made at a sample rate some at 44.1 others at 48.0, this is fixed when you load a sample it loadas at his sample rate, Hauptwerk does not do any rate conversion, so the only explanation is the moment the interface needs to do a re-clock, 20 seconds?, this is to long. You said changing sample rates between samples is not a good idea, why? samples are made this way, so tell us why.

Thanks Martin

[mdyde]

Hello Antonio,

Thanks for the progress report.

Yes -- whenever an organ has finished loading, Hauptwerk asks the ASIO driver to start with whichever samplr rate the organ requires (44.1 kHz or 48 kHz). Most audio interfaces are fine with that, switch sample rates almost instantaneously, but the issue here is that the MOTU AVB interfaces are taking a long time to switch sample rates ('re-clock').

Would sending the clock rate request before loading commences speed things up a bit?

(Just a thought)

[mdyde]

Hello Murph,

Thanks for the novel idea, which I suppose could potentially be implemented in the long-term as a work-around, as a last resort, although I think it would be much better if MOTU addressed the issue properly if at all possible (within the driver/hardware). I've logged it as an enhancement request anyway, so it doesn't get forgotten.

I have a similar problem using the MOTU 24ao device with the USB interface and Windows 10. Initially, I was getting an error when loading a sample set with a different sample rate. My work-around was to stop and restart the audio engine.

Recently, I updated the MOTU windows driver and a bunch of other updates. Now it doesn't throw an error, but just won't play any sound until I restart the audio engine. I liked having the error better since this is a church installation and could lead to quite an embarrassing situation. Admittedly, I'm not sure I waited long enough to see if the sound was restored on its own.

This the last reply from MOTU, it sound to me they won't do anything to fix the issue.
Added by Andrew on 2017/04/21 16:45:05 Universal
Last edited by Andrew on 2017/04/21 16:46:14 Universal
Most VI samplers like Kontakt or Mach Five, for example, do real-time sample rate conversion. This means that it isn't a problem to have a collection of samples recorded at various sample rates. The VI will seamlessly convert the samples in real-time.

I'm not very familiar with Hauptwerk, but it sounds like this may be an oversight on someone's part. If Hauptwerk doesn't convert, then the recorded sample rate of the samples should always stay consistent to avoid an issue like you are describing.

A sample rate change on the UL AVB should only take approx. 5 seconds BUT this can vary based on the situation and the clock source. How is the UL AVB being clocked?

I hope this explanation helps you out.