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No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

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No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby fstarkey » Tue May 30, 2017 5:10 pm

UNCLE! Ok, I concede. HW has beat me. Here is the situation…
Our church has had it’s Moller pipe organ refurbished and the action replaced by a Classic OrganWorks system. A Hauptwerk installation was provided to supplement the Moller. The HW side is now running on a Mac Mini, with Motu MIDI interface and a Motu Ao24 audio interface connected via AVB Ethernet. Our chosen virtual organ is the Salisbury Cathedral set.

I have three know issues: No audio output, an apparent conflict of assignment between the Great manual and one specific stop (Great 8 Trumpet,) and the virtual keyboards for the Salibury set can’t be found!

I have worked my way through HW’s abstraction levels of audio output to set up multi-channel output. Briefly, on an initial attempt, I had output without any stops activated! (Thus validating the signal chain from the audio driver, forward through the interface, amps, and speakers.) But I have lost even that. HW’s large status panel confirms MIDI console input (apparently on the correct channels.) The Audio bargraph remains flat dead. My understanding is that if reflects HW’s streaming output to the host device driver. Thus I assume there are still errors internal to HW’s configuration.

The next bit really puzzles me… So I went looking for the Salisbury’s virtual keyboards/manuals to see if the Midi input was reflected on the virtual keys. There don’t appear to be any! I’ve been all through the menus, but all I can call up are the L/R stop panels and the middle section showing only the pistons. No keyboards!

At any rate, I have included a diagnostic file of the present state. I have no confidence in the configuration, having made many different attempts, but it should illustrate what I am attempting to do/learn/accomplish. Any suggestions welcome.


Next bit…
To get a feel for associating the physical organ with HW, I started with physical stops that are found within the Salisbury set. Using Auto-detect worked great for the stops. When I proceeded to the Manuals, HW complained that one of the stops was in conflict with what it learned of the Great and ask which/either/or both to respond to. I took that to mean that some key was producing the same MIDI message as the cited stop. Using a MIDI monitor utility, I have examined the output from both the manuals and the stops. Everything looks good. The keys report on the proper channels for the associated manual (1-4,) with corresponding note value and on/off (64/0.) The stops come in on channel 16, also looking correct. There doesn’t appear to be any overlap of MIDI data from OW.

What is HW complaining about?

Thanks,
Fred
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby fstarkey » Tue May 30, 2017 7:33 pm

Haven't figured out where to attach diagnostic file. Completely helpless...
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby organtechnology » Wed May 31, 2017 12:44 am

Sounds like you need professional help :)
Where are you located?

Thomas
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby engrssc » Wed May 31, 2017 1:38 am

Send diagnostic file (and procedure) to https://www.hauptwerk.com/forms/support/

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby mdyde » Wed May 31, 2017 5:49 am

Hello Fred,

fstarkey wrote:I have worked my way through HW’s abstraction levels of audio output to set up multi-channel output. Briefly, on an initial attempt, I had output without any stops activated!


My first guess would be that you had accidentally moved the virtual crescendo pedal to a non-off position at the point in time when you unexpectedly had sound; the Salisbury sample set's virtual crescendo pedal adds to the virtual draw-knob registration.

fstarkey wrote:The Audio bargraph remains flat dead. My understanding is that if reflects HW’s streaming output to the host device driver. Thus I assume there are still errors internal to HW’s configuration.


It's correct that Hauptwerk's audio level meter shows the sound that Hauptwerk is sending to the driver. If the meter isn't doing anything then either:

1. You aren't doing anything within Hauptwerk that would be expected to produce sound. (For example, your MIDI keyboards aren't currently playing any virtual keys, perhaps because they haven't been auto-detected to them, or no virtual stops are turned on.) Or:

2. The selected audio driver itself isn't actually running properly, i.e. isn't calling Hauptwerk to stream the audio. (This seems unlikely, unless perhaps there is some kind of incorrect configuration with the AVB software/hardware that might give rise to that.)

fstarkey wrote:The next bit really puzzles me… So I went looking for the Salisbury’s virtual keyboards/manuals to see if the Midi input was reflected on the virtual keys. There don’t appear to be any! I’ve been all through the menus, but all I can call up are the L/R stop panels and the middle section showing only the pistons. No keyboards!


Yes -- the Salisbury sample set doesn't currently have any virtual keyboards displayed on its console. To configure MIDI input to the virtual keyboards of that particular sample set, instead of right-clicking on virtual keyboards, you instead need to go to the 'Organ settings | Keyboards' screen, highlight the desired virtual keyboard in the left-hand browse list, then use the 'Auto-detect ...' button on the right-hand side.

Hence please try auto-detecting them via that screen. Do you then hear audio output, with appropriate virtual stops turned on?

fstarkey wrote:To get a feel for associating the physical organ with HW, I started with physical stops that are found within the Salisbury set. Using Auto-detect worked great for the stops. When I proceeded to the Manuals, HW complained that one of the stops was in conflict with what it learned of the Great and ask which/either/or both to respond to.


Do you mean that you had actually found the 'Organ settings | Keyboards' screen and used it to auto-detect the virtual Great by that point in time?

fstarkey wrote:I took that to mean that some key was producing the same MIDI message as the cited stop. Using a MIDI monitor utility, I have examined the output from both the manuals and the stops. Everything looks good. The keys report on the proper channels for the associated manual (1-4,) with corresponding note value and on/off (64/0.) The stops come in on channel 16, also looking correct. There doesn’t appear to be any overlap of MIDI data from OW.


fstarkey wrote:I took that to mean that some key was producing the same MIDI message as the cited stop.


Yes -- if you get a warning during auto-detection that a virtual keyboard and a virtual stop have the same MIDI settings then during auto-detection of the stop Hauptwerk must have heard a MIDI note-on/off message on the same MIDI channel that the virtual keyboard is currently configured to use (although the MIDI note number ranges may be non-overlapping, which would be fine).

If you'd like our help with that, please try:

- Make sure that Hauptwerk is running, with no organ loaded.

- On the 'General settings | General preferences | Advanced ...' screen tab, temporarily turn on the 'Diagnostics: log all MIDI messages ...' option. OK the screen.

- Being careful not to touch anything else (so that we can identify the relevant MIDI messages apart easily in the log), press, then release, one of the keys on your relevant virtual keyboard (the one you had mapped to the virtual Great).

- Wait 10 seconds or so (also so that we can tell the messages apart in the log).

- Without touching anything else, turn on the relevant MIDI stop, then turn it off again.

- Without touching anything else, use 'Help | Create a diagnostic file' to create a new diagnostic file and send it to us ( http://www.hauptwerk.com/forms/support/ ). That will allow us to see exactly what MIDI messages your piano is transmitting.

- Turn MIDI logging off again on the general preferences screen.

Thanks.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby fstarkey » Wed May 31, 2017 10:20 pm

Martin,

Looking back from the device driver perspective, the driver - being responsible for timing & error keeping of the protocol would of course assert a send signal, to follow available input buffer space. Apple's AVB capability is somewhat less than plug-n-play. The Motu occasionally disappears. Motu information is pretty good, but I'm not certain I fully follow everything going on with Apples stream definitions versus the Motu Virtual Mac AVB device. Do you know of any good reading on the subject?

What do you make of this... The large control panel has a volume slider and a clickable attenuator. I found the attenuator set to -10db. Anything above -5 brings the level up to show 1 bar on the audio bar graph. Is this real output - wind chest noise or something - or just the noise floor of the math? Per your description, would that 1 bar indicate that the audio device driver was successfully requesting/admitting a data stream?

I am uploading an earlier diagnostic, per instructions in this thread. Please review the audio configurations, etc. Please let me know if you see something wrong/missing. I will try HW's MIDI diagnostic at my next opportunity. Perhaps it will catch something about the auto-detect conflict that MIDI Monitor missed...

Lastly, would I be better off going back to the default/St Annes sample set for continued troubleshooting, get things lined out there before continuing with Salisbury?

Thanks,
Fred
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby fstarkey » Wed May 31, 2017 10:25 pm

Ed,
Thanks for the diagnostic upload link. I've seen that page before, just lost track of where!
Fred
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby NickNelson » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:23 am

fstarkey wrote:Lastly, would I be better off going back to the default/St Annes sample set for continued troubleshooting, get things lined out there before continuing with Salisbury?


This is certainly what I would do.

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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby mdyde » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:05 am

Hello Fred,

Thanks for the diagnostic file.

fstarkey wrote:Looking back from the device driver perspective, the driver - being responsible for timing & error keeping of the protocol would of course assert a send signal, to follow available input buffer space. Apple's AVB capability is somewhat less than plug-n-play. The Motu occasionally disappears. Motu information is pretty good, but I'm not certain I fully follow everything going on with Apples stream definitions versus the Motu Virtual Mac AVB device. Do you know of any good reading on the subject?


I don't, off-hand, I'm afraid. I have two MOTU 16A AVB interfaces, but I have one connected directly to my Mac by USB (not via Ethernet), and the second connected to the first directly by an Ethernet cable. I avoided using any direct, or indirect, Ethernet connections between AVB and the computer since I'd read that performance (latency, etc.) and reliability are likely to be better that way.

If your MOTU 24Ao is located close enough to the Mac to be able to connect via USB (instead of Ethernet) then I'd recommend doing that instead. The maximum specified length for USB 2.0 cables is 5 metres ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Cabling ). Even if you plan ultimately to connect it via Ethernet you could perhaps instead try connecting it via USB temporarily, for initial troubleshooting.

With a direct USB connection you should just need to make sure that the latest version of MOTU's AVB driver is installed, configure the 24Ao via MOTU's AVB control panel software, then select the MOTU device and channels in Hauptwerk.

However, as far as I can tell, your current audio settings in Hauptwerk do appear to be valid, in that you have all Salisbury ranks routed to audio output groups that themselves contain audio outputs using channels on your 'FBCMonroe’s Mac mini:Ethernet' audio device (which presumably represents your MOTU 24Ao).

Some general thoughts on your audio settings in Hauptwerk:

- You also have the default audio output and group using the HauptwerkVSTLink, but you have no ranks routed to that, which is fine technically but seems a little confusing. I would recommend deleting your current Great audio output and its group, and instead configuring the default audio output and group to be the Great, so that by default any new organs you might load would get routed to the Great audio output (i.e. a valid audio output and valid channels, rather than getting routed to the HauptwerkVSTLink, which presumably you wouldn't hear), thus avoiding potential for future confusion, as well as avoiding two audio devices being used simultaneously and unnecessarily (the MOTU AVB and HauptwerkVSTLink).

- Since you have one audio output in each group, I'd suggest giving each audio output an aliases (name) according to the group in which it resides, just for clarity. For example, you could name the audio that's in the Swell group 'Swell'.

fstarkey wrote:What do you make of this... The large control panel has a volume slider and a clickable attenuator. I found the attenuator set to -10db. Anything above -5 brings the level up to show 1 bar on the audio bar graph. Is this real output - wind chest noise or something - or just the noise floor of the math? Per your description, would that 1 bar indicate that the audio device driver was successfully requesting/admitting a data stream?


A non-zero number of bars on the audio level meter indicates that Hauptwerk is indeed streaming actual organ sound (probably just the virtual blower noise) to your audio drivers/interface. Hence the problem will probably either be that you don't have MIDI input configured to the virtual keyboards (so that you aren't currently playing/hearing any virtual organ keys/pipes), or that that there's some problem external to Hauptwerk within the AVB configuration/routing (e.g. a channel/routing setting within MOTU's AVB control panel).

I can also confirm from your diagnostic file that Hauptwerk is indeed producing valid audio output. (The audio meter's peak level gets written to the log.)

fstarkey wrote:Lastly, would I be better off going back to the default/St Annes sample set for continued troubleshooting, get things lined out there before continuing with Salisbury?


I too would recommend that -- yes. As well as being small and quick to load, and an organ that everybody has ready access to and knows well, it's easier to troubleshoot than the Salisbury because it has displayed virtual keyboards, so you can see immediately whether MIDI keyboards are configured properly, and you can also click on the virtual keys to see whether you can hear their sound (i.e. to narrow down quickly whether the issue is with MIDI, or with audio).

As above, I'd also recommend changing the default audio output and group to be the Great, so that only one audio device is being used (your MOTU, not the HauptwerkVSTLink).
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby fstarkey » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:02 pm

Martin,
Tried a some of the suggestions. Specifically, I delected my Great Channel and renamed [Default]Default to [Default]Great... Then I assigned it to the appropriate output stream.

Next, loaded up St Annes. HW didn't ask me to assign ranks/outputs as it had done on the first load of Salisbury, so I went looking and used load organ/assign... command. HW presented everything in St Annes as routed to the default. Actually to my [Default]Great...

So then, I pull a virtual stop, start clicking keys, and I have audio through the Mac Mini's internal speaker!

Even if my Motu set-up is wrong, shouldn't the Mac's Built-In output channel remain silent?

Uploading diagnostic momentarily...

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Fred
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Re: No Audio / Auto-Detect Conflicts

Postby mdyde » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:21 am

Hello Fred,

Thanks for the diagnostic file.

On the 'General settings | Audio outputs' screen, the problem is that you have the Mac's 'Built-in output' selected as the audio device for your 'Main output' entry (the one at the very bottom of the left-hand browse list). Currently you have two audio outputs within your 'Great' group (which is the default group, as intended):

1. The one with the 'FCBMonroe's Mac mini:Ethernet' device's channels 7/8 selected, and:
2. That one named 'Main output', which has your Mac's 'Built-in output' device's channels 1/2 selected.

Given that each other group has just a single output in it, I think you probably intended just to have a single output in the Great too, so you just need to delete that 'Main output' entry completely (by highlighting it in the left-hand browse list and clicking the Delete button underneath the list).

(If you have more than one output in a group then pipes in a rank will be assigned amongst the available outputs -- cyclically by default -- so currently you have it configured so that notes would sound alternately through the output devices/channels selected for those two outputs above, i.e. so that alternate notes would sound through the Mac's Built-in Output.)

As well as deleting that 'Main output' entry, for clarity I'd also recommend giving each of the other audio output entries a meaningful 'Alias' setting (near the bottom-right of the screen), based on the groups that they're intended to be in.
Best regards,
Martin.

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