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Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

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Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby kaspencer » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:55 pm

Greetings all.

As my Hauptwerk console was built almost nine years ago, and so (despite quite a few additions) I am in the process of building OPUS II, which will be pretty near "state of the art".

So, I wonder how many Hauptwerk users have installed the Classic MIDI Organ Works (manufactured by Artisan Organs Inc) Illuminated Rocker Tabs? I have recently taken delivery of this item, mine being the 16-tab version: it works satisfactorily, in the sense that pressing a Tab up or down will activate or de-activate a stop or coupler, and will light up or extinguish the built in LEDs accordingly.

However, I have two questions about the use of this device. (I have contacted CMOW, but have not thus far received a reply).

1. The Tabs do not follow the state of the virtual console - tapping a coupler or stop on the touch screen does not alter the state of the corresponding rocker tab, thus causing the rocker tab LEDs to be out of sync with the state of the organ. Likewise, when a LaunchPad button is pressed, the Rocker Tabs do not synchronise with the LaunchPad, whether the Tabs are on Input/Output 1 and the LaunchPad is on Input/Output 2 or vice-versa. However, the LaunchPad does synchronise with the Rocker Tabs!
The Tab board is configured to accept MIDI OUT from the computer, so either synchronising MIDI OUTs go only to LaunchPads to remain in synchronisation with the console, or MIDI OUT data is not being responded to by the Tabs.

2. Any Stops or Couplers selected by Tabs remain illuminated when the organ is unloaded. Loading another organ leaves the LEDs on but the stops or couplers, are of course off. This does not happen with LaunchPads.
Is it possible to switch off all Rocker Tab LEDs using a physical switch linked to any of Hauptwerk's virtual controls?

I would be really interested in comments from other users of these Rocker Tab boards, and to also have any comments from Martin. I hope my explanation of the issue is intelligible! If the advice is that the Rocker Tabs are not in fact responding properly to MIDI OUTs I will take it further with CMOW - maybe other users will do that too.

Thanks in advance!

Ken
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby mdyde » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:55 pm

Hello Ken,

We (myself and Brett) have no direct experience with Classic MIDI Works' rocker tabs, I'm afraid, so I'm not sure I'm really in a position to be able to offer much meaningful advice; Classic MIDI Works might be the people who would really need to comment. E.g. perhaps there are some settings in their hardware that need to be configured, for example to tell to let Hauptwerk control the lamp states (rather than doing so itself), but I don't know.

As a test, using St. Anne's, on the Great Open Diapason Large 8 stop, please try using right-click 'Clear all MIDI/trigger settings ...', then using right-clicking auto-detection to auto-detect just a rocker tab to it (but not a Launchpad button). Do Hauptwerk and the rocker tab then remain properly synchronised bi-directionally, when operated from either?
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby dhm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:11 pm

I believe the person to talk to at CMW nowadays is Attila Magyar (AttilaM [at] organworks.com), who took over from Darryl Wood a few months ago.
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby GrahamH » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:17 pm

Hello Ken

A few years ago I installed 32 of these illuminated rocker tabs to form a coupler rail on a fellow-Hauptwerkian's console.
I can confirm that, when correctly set up, the rocker tab LED's echo the state of their on screen counterparts regardless of how the on-screen elements (stops or couplers) are activated. That is to say if you activate an on-screen stop by using a mouse, tapping a touch-screen, operating a physical switch such as the rocker tab itself or a Launchpad, or by using a real or virtual thumb piston etc. the rocker tab LED will light when the on-screen element is activated and it will go out when the on-screen element is deactivated.
However, achieving this happy state of affairs is an absolute nightmare. For some unknown reason, it simply cannot be achieved at all if you are using a Moto Microlite MIDI interface, but if you substitute (say) an M-Audio MIDI interface it can be achieved - with perseverance.
Unfortunately I cannot remember the exact sequence of steps that had to be followed in order to achieve satisfactory operation, but if I remember correctly, whilst it was possible to auto-detect the rocker tab SWITCHES, it was not sufficient simply to configure Hauptwerk to send matching MIDI output in order to operate the LAMPS. The MIDI output necessary for correct operation of the LED's had to be configured manually, and again if I remember correctly, the MIDI ports had to be specifically named in order to avoid triggering Hauptwerk's MIDI feed-back warning.
Correspondence with CMOW at the time was singularly unhelpful and did not lead to a satisfactory resolution of the problem which I suspect is due to a design-flaw related to the fact that the MIDI encoder for the switches and the MIDI decoder (or driver circuit) for the lamps are combined on the same printed circuit board.
Now that Darryl is no longer there to support the Hauptwerk community I fear you may be on your own with this one.
If you manage to come up with a solution I'm sure my friend would be happy to hear from you, since he has recently acquired a new sample set and is currently steeling himself to re-live the nightmare of configuring his coupler rail!

Good luck!

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby organtechnology » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 pm

kaspencer wrote:Greetings all.

As my Hauptwerk console was built almost nine years ago, and so (despite quite a few additions) I am in the process of building OPUS II, which will be pretty near "state of the art".

So, I wonder how many Hauptwerk users have installed the Classic MIDI Organ Works (manufactured by Artisan Organs Inc) Illuminated Rocker Tabs? I have recently taken delivery of this item, mine being the 16-tab version: it works satisfactorily, in the sense that pressing a Tab up or down will activate or de-activate a stop or coupler, and will light up or extinguish the built in LEDs accordingly.

However, I have two questions about the use of this device. (I have contacted CMOW, but have not thus far received a reply).

1. The Tabs do not follow the state of the virtual console - tapping a coupler or stop on the touch screen does not alter the state of the corresponding rocker tab, thus causing the rocker tab LEDs to be out of sync with the state of the organ. Likewise, when a LaunchPad button is pressed, the Rocker Tabs do not synchronise with the LaunchPad, whether the Tabs are on Input/Output 1 and the LaunchPad is on Input/Output 2 or vice-versa. However, the LaunchPad does synchronise with the Rocker Tabs!
The Tab board is configured to accept MIDI OUT from the computer, so either synchronising MIDI OUTs go only to LaunchPads to remain in synchronisation with the console, or MIDI OUT data is not being responded to by the Tabs.

2. Any Stops or Couplers selected by Tabs remain illuminated when the organ is unloaded. Loading another organ leaves the LEDs on but the stops or couplers, are of course off. This does not happen with LaunchPads.
Is it possible to switch off all Rocker Tab LEDs using a physical switch linked to any of Hauptwerk's virtual controls?

I would be really interested in comments from other users of these Rocker Tab boards, and to also have any comments from Martin. I hope my explanation of the issue is intelligible! If the advice is that the Rocker Tabs are not in fact responding properly to MIDI OUTs I will take it further with CMOW - maybe other users will do that too.

Thanks in advance!

Ken


Hi Ken,

I think you describe a situation where the Hauptwerk combination system is not controlling the LED in the rocker switch. If it were, the LED would follow the state of the stops whether set manually, virtually or via the Hauptwerk Combination Action. Each stop has two inputs and outputs and you would set up the rocker switch on one input and the launchpad on the other. Looks like you have done this.

Check to see if the rocker switches are set up to control the LED externally or just toggle it off and on via the switch. Perhaps Hauptwerk is controlling the LED in the LaunchPad OK but not the LED in the rocker switch because the rocker switch is not 'listening' or listening for the wrong signal.

Also you should check to see if either switch input causes both outputs to send. If not, can the rocker switch LED on signal be set to activate the LED with the same output as the LaunchPad. If so set the output 2 to be the same as the output 1.

Please let us know what you find.

Best regards,

Thomas
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby oliver_mayes » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:45 am

I can also confirm that the lighted tabs wok correctly. Mine were installed about 5 years ago and have not had a single problem after configuration. I don't remember all the steps to set it up, but it works good once done. On my web site is some information of how I build and wired my console. It may be a little outdated but you can taker a look at
http://omayes.com/VirtualOrgan/OrganPage0.html

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby kaspencer » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:50 am

Thanks for all the replies ... here are some comments on each:

Martin: thanks for the advice. I tried exactly what you said, leaving the LaunchPads out of the equation, but whilst the Rocker continues to select and de-select the stop, it does not respond to changes to the state of the virtual stop. I tried several ways, including ticking "Send matching MIDI ..." and unticking it.

Douglas Thanks for that, indeed I have been in regular communication with Attila since placing my order a while ago - I had not, however, realised that Darryl Wood was no longer there. They do respond but there are quite a few days between a few words! I hope they are working on it, because I am configuring this board exactly as per the instructions (that is, when I found them as there were none in the package!).

Graham Thanks Graham. The design of the rocker tab interface was changed a while back. We are now onto LRT-5, in which the interface is USB only, and the controller electronics are all on the same board as the tabs. Neater, but if it's not working ... well!!! However until I get confirmation from CMOW that they can configure those boards to work properly I will stick with it! What might be useful though is to see if your friend can examine the MIDI Output settings of his board. The advice via CMOW is to match the MIDI IN with the MIDI OUT.

Thomas Thanks Thomas. Yes, your first paragraph is exactly correct, and I have tried with either LaunchPads on Input/Output 1 and Tabs on Input/Output 2 and vice versa, and, on Martin's request, with no LaunchPads at all. There is no obvious means of setting the LED to respond just locally or to MIDI OUT data - it seems as though it is listening, but not hearing! Graham's response suggests that it may be listening but that it is not listening for the data being sent by Hauptwerk.
I will examine the possibility suggested in your last paragraph!

Ollie Thanks Ollie. I think that your Tabs were version LRT-3 or LRT-3A, which were MIDI only (not USB) and looking at the boards, seemed to be quite a different design. I'll look at your website as a matter of interest, but I think that the solution will be specific to this later model of the Tab board.

Thanks again all!

Ken
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby mdyde » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:04 pm

Hello Ken,

Thanks for the updates.

kaspencer wrote:Martin: thanks for the advice. I tried exactly what you said, leaving the LaunchPads out of the equation, but whilst the Rocker continues to select and de-select the stop, it does not respond to changes to the state of the virtual stop. I tried several ways, including ticking "Send matching MIDI ..." and unticking it.


In that case, the only things I can suggest are

1. Double-check that the correct MIDI OUT port is selected for the stop's primary output settings (which will be whatever was chosen when auto-detecting the stop).

2. You could also verify for certain that the expected MIDI messages are being sent from Hauptwerk when you click on the virtual stop to change its state by temporarily enabling MIDI logging (on the 'General settings | General preferences | Advanced ...' screen tab, then using 'Help | View activity log' straight after clicking on the stop to change its state).

Assuming the MIDI messages are indeed being sent as expected from the virtual stop (which they should be) then it must be something within the hardware that needs changing/resolving, for which I'd have to leave you to work with Classic MIDI Works (or other people here on the forum with knowledge of the hardware).
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby kaspencer » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:14 pm

Written BEFORE reading your last post!
Martin - if this helps, with the Rocker Tab board connected and only MIDI-OX running, the MIDI IN and OUT data from the first Tab on the board are:

INPUT:
TIMESTAMP--IN--PORT--STATUS--DATA1--DATA2--CHAN--NOTE--------EVENT
000026D3......1...... -- ........ B0 ......... 51 ........ 00 ......... 1 ........ --- ...... Control Change (SELECT STOP)
00002E90 .... 1 ..... -- ........ B0 ......... 50 ........ 00 ......... 1 ........ --- ...... Control Change (DESELECT STOP)

OUTPUT:
TIMESTAMP--IN--PORT--STATUS--DATA1--DATA2--CHAN--NOTE--------EVENT
000026D3 .... 1 ...... 2 ....... B0 ......... 51 ........ 00 ......... 1 ........ --- ....... Control Change (SELECT STOP)
00002E90 .... 1 ...... 2 ....... B0 ......... 50 ........ 00 ......... 1 ....... --- ....... Control Change (DESELECT STOP)

I had thought that maybe the issue lies in the Port Number (2 for output), but I'm not sure what to change in Hauptwerk's Output 1 or Output 2 dialogue for the Tab.

Thanks again,

Ken
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby mdyde » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:31 pm

Hello Ken,

kaspencer wrote:I had thought that maybe the issue lies in the Port Number (2 for output), but I'm not sure what to change in Hauptwerk's Output 1 or Output 2 dialogue for the Tab.


I'd suggest working with just one virtual stop on St. Anne's, and concentrate on trying to get it working using just the rocker tabs (without the Launhpads) and using standard right-click auto-detection on that virtual stop, to keep things as simple as possible. If you just use standard right-click auto-detection then it will automatically configure the settings on the 'Input 1' and 'Output 1' tabs (including the MIDI OUT port).
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby kaspencer » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:34 pm

Martin - Thanks for the earlier message ... I was writing my previous message when you sent it. (and, yes, I am using standard auto-detection throughout)
However, here is the information present in the Activity Log (I have edited out some of the audio and other messages):

2017-08-17-17-23-56: INF:3823 Starting MIDI IN port 'CLASSIC Lighted Rockers 01-000'.
2017-08-17-17-23-56: INF:3827 Starting MIDI OUT port 'CLASSIC Lighted Rockers 01-000'.
2017-08-17-17-23-56: INF:3824 MIDI started.
2017-08-17-17-23-56: INF:5096 Starting audio.
---
2017-08-17-17-23-56: INF:5098 Audio started.
2017-08-17-17-23-57: INF:2565 Diag: OUT: MIDI control change: port: CLASSIC Lighted Rockers 01-000, channel (1-16): 01, controller (0-127): 080, value (0-127): 000. (Raw hex bytes: B0 50 00.)

2017-08-17-17-23-59: INF:2569 Diag: IN: mouse button pressed (virtual console coordinates): x: 0803, y: 0156, tab number (1-16): 01.
2017-08-17-17-23-59: INF:2565 Diag: OUT: MIDI control change: port: CLASSIC Lighted Rockers 01-000, channel (1-16): 01, controller (0-127): 081, value (0-127): 000. (Raw hex bytes: B0 51 00.)
2017-08-17-17-23-59: INF:2570 Diag: IN: mouse button released (virtual console coordinates): x: 0803, y: 0156, tab number (1-16): 01.
2017-08-17-17-24-00: INF:2569 Diag: IN: mouse button pressed (virtual console coordinates): x: 0803, y: 0156, tab number (1-16): 01.
2017-08-17-17-24-00: INF:2565 Diag: OUT: MIDI control change: port: CLASSIC Lighted Rockers 01-000, channel (1-16): 01, controller (0-127): 080, value (0-127): 000. (Raw hex bytes: B0 50 00.)
2017-08-17-17-24-00: INF:2570 Diag: IN: mouse button released (virtual console coordinates): x: 0803, y: 0156, tab number (1-16): 01.

To my (relatively) inexperienced eye, this info seems to match the MIDI-OX data, except that MIDI-OX declared the Port to be 2, and that there is a MIDI OUT Message at 17:23:57 before I hit any controls of the organ.. Does any of this help?

Thanks

Ken
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby mdyde » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:01 pm

Hello Ken,

kaspencer wrote:Martin - if this helps, with the Rocker Tab board connected and only MIDI-OX running, the MIDI IN and OUT data from the first Tab on the board are:

INPUT:
TIMESTAMP--IN--PORT--STATUS--DATA1--DATA2--CHAN--NOTE--------EVENT
000026D3......1...... -- ........ B0 ......... 51 ........ 00 ......... 1 ........ --- ...... Control Change (SELECT STOP)
00002E90 .... 1 ..... -- ........ B0 ......... 50 ........ 00 ......... 1 ........ --- ...... Control Change (DESELECT STOP)

OUTPUT:
TIMESTAMP--IN--PORT--STATUS--DATA1--DATA2--CHAN--NOTE--------EVENT
000026D3 .... 1 ...... 2 ....... B0 ......... 51 ........ 00 ......... 1 ........ --- ....... Control Change (SELECT STOP)
00002E90 .... 1 ...... 2 ....... B0 ......... 50 ........ 00 ......... 1 ....... --- ....... Control Change (DESELECT STOP)


Could you clarify?:

- What did you use to send that MIDI output from the computer (via MIDI-OX)? (Presumably not Hauptwerk, since you mention MIDI-OX was the only thing running?) E.g. did you type the MIDI messages directly into MIDI-OX to send them directly from MIDI-OX?

- When that MIDI output was sent from the computer, did the rocker tab change its state in response?

kaspencer wrote:the MIDI IN and OUT data from the first Tab on the board


Just to clarify, MIDI-OX can only log MIDI messages being sent *from* the rocker tabs to the computer, or being sent *to* the rocker tabs from the computer. (The rocker tabs can't tell MIDI-OX what they need/expect to receive.)
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby GrahamH » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:31 pm

Hi Ken

It would appear that the hardware has changed significantly since I was involved with the illuminated rocker tabs.
Nevertheless, the basic operating principle must be the same, namely:
The Hauptwerk on-screen stop (or coupler) responds to MIDI-in messages received from the rocker tab switch.
The rocker tab lamp responds to MIDI-out messages sent by the Hauptwerk virtual stop.
Presumably the rocker tabs and their circuit boards are designed such that the lamps expect to receive the same numerical MIDI message from Hauptwerk as the switches send to Haupwerk.
Because you can't manually configure Haupwerk's primary output to send program change messages, you will have to configure the primary output to auto-match the primary input.
But the ports through which these input and output messages are conveyed will (almost certainly) need to be different and will depend on which ports you have enabled in Haupwerk's General Settings. (You can't manually select ports in the Primary Output screen.)
Have you enabled all the necessary ports?
And after experimenting with the rocker tabs, have you gone back to check that the ports you ticked are still ticked?
I recollect that after experimenting for a little while and getting nowhere, it was necessary to go back periodically to square one as it were, and invoke the General Settings wizard again!

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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby kaspencer » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:56 pm

Thanks Martin and Graham ... I appreciate your continued efforts.

Martin
My post of Thu 17th Aug, 2017 5:14 pm showed the simple results of connecting the Rocker Tab Board to the PC, starting MIDI-OX and the then capturing the MIDI IN and MIDI OUT messages when I enabled the first Tab and then disabled it - I just tapped the Tab. The Tab sent the messages as I tapped - I did nothing other than retrieve the messages using MIDI-OX's Copy command. I thought it might help - it does show that the port for MIDI OUT on the device is different from that for MIDI IN (2 for MIDI OUT), but I cannot see what I should select in Hauptwerk's MIDI OUT dialogue to replace what is configured by Auto-Detect. But as I mentioned I could be barking up the wrong tree!

My post of Thu 17th Aug, 2017 5:34 pm I thought might be of more use to you - that is the Activity Log from Hauptwerk, produced when I just tapped the Rocker Tab to activate and then de-activate the St. Anne's Open Diapason 8 stop.

Any comments will be appreciated

Graham
Thanks again, Graham. Your understanding is very much in line with my thoughts. But the configuration instructions which I have (via the CMOW website) specify that the Output should be set to match the Input, which I have done, and the MIDI OUTs are correctly enabled.
The question is: when I activate the Stop via the Tab, the LED lights - does it do that from Hauptwerk's MIDI OUT or by directly switching on the board? I have no known way of configuring that aspect (unless CMOW enlighten me), and based on observation it could well be that the board is not collecting MIDI OUT data (although MIDI-OX suggests that it may be).
Did your previous exercises with the Rocker Tabs involve configuring NRPN messages for output? I am going to fiddle with that next!

Thanks again, Martin & Graham. Nothing like a challenge eh!

Ken
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Re: Classic MIDI Organ Works Illuminated Rocker Tabs

Postby GrahamH » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Hi Ken

You ask
The question is: when I activate the Stop via the Tab, the LED lights - does it do that from Hauptwerk's MIDI OUT or by directly switching on the board?


You could determine this by either closing Hauptwerk or disabling MIDI out from Hauptwerk, then pressing the tab. If the LED still lights, then it is clearly not being triggered by messages from Hauptwerk!

Conversely, you could determine whether the rocker tab LED is being triggered by a MIDI-out message from Hauptwerk by configuring a stop to send a message (that matches the input from the tab), then mouse-clicking the on-screen stop rather than pressing the physical tab.. If the LED responds, you must be doing something right! If it doesn't respond then either it's not receiving the message, or the message is not the one that it expects to receive.

I still feel it's a MIDI port issue - or maybe a MIDI channel issue ...

Did your previous exercises with the Rocker Tabs involve configuring NRPN messages for output?


Definitely not - I have never worked with NRPN messages. I guess we were working with Program Change messages, but I can't remember for certain. If not Program Change messages, it would have been Note on/off messages (which are my message of choice whenever I do an illuminated switch installation).
I wouldn't waste time playing with NRPN messages ...

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