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Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

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Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby kaspencer » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:01 pm

Good evening all ...

... I have noted that the default "Auto-detect" for Stop Controls (at least for my hardware) for the "Input from MIDI stop/Piston or Key" seems to be "Momentary piston: Alternating MIDI Note on/offs".
However using this setting my stop switches seem to be a bit prone to bounce, and I have found that changing the "Input from MIDI stop/Piston or Key" setting to: "Momentary piston: MIDI Note on" gives me 100% reliability and absolutely no sign of switch bounce at all.

I have tried changing the setting available on the initial Auto-detect dialogue - the "De-bounce" setting on this dialogue is actually greyed out but available on the Manual configuration dialogue, but makes no difference. I have also tried operating the stop switch both once and twice as per the instruction on the dialogue.

If I could get the Auto-Detect default setting to be "Momentary piston: MIDI Note on" it would save quite a bit of time configuring a large organ.

Thanks and best wishes,

Ken
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby mdyde » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:50 am

Hello Ken,

If:

1. Your console sends (exactly and only) a MIDI note-on message as you turn one of its stops on, and (exactly and only) a corresponding MIDI note-off message as you turn that one of its stops off again,

... and:

2. During auto-detection you make sure that you turn the stop on, and then off again, and don't touch anything else on the console, and that you don't tick the 'Toggle state ...' option on the auto-detection screen,

... then Hauptwerk will detect the event type as 'Stop or hold-piston: MIDI note-on/off'. Hence presumably your MIDI stops are behaving differently from 1.

What type of MIDI stops does your console have? Draw-knobs or tabs? Solenoid-actuated or illuminated? Do they have different physical 'on' and 'off' positions in which they remain whilst in that state (i.e. a latching action physically), or do they spring back to their standard positions after changing state (i.e. a momentary action physically)?

Please also:

- Load the St. Anne's organ.

- On the 'General settings | General preferences | Advanced ...' screen tab, turn on the 'Diagnostics: log all MIDI messages received ...' option. OK the screen.

- Wait 10 seconds or so (without touching anything, so that I can tell the relevant MIDI messages apart easily in the log).

- (Being careful not to touch anything else, for the same reason), right-click on the Open Diapason Large 8 stop and select 'Auto-detect ...'.

- (Being careful not to touch anything else), turn the relevant MIDI stop on (or, If it has a momentary action, then perform whatever push/pull/press action you would use to turn the stop on in normal use).

- Wait 10 seconds or so (without touching anything).

- (Being careful not to touch anything else), turn the relevant MIDI stop off again (or, If it has a momentary action, then perform whatever push/pull/press action you would use to turn the stop off again in normal use).

- Wait 10 seconds or so (without touching anything).

- (Being careful not to touch anything else), make sure that the 'Toggle state ...' option is set in the way that the action of your physical stops require (i.e. ticked if their physical action is momentary, not ticked if their physical action is latching). OK the screen.

- (Without touching anything else), use 'Help | Create a diagnostic file' and send the resulting file to us: http://www.hauptwerk.com/forms/support/ . That will allow me to see exactly what MIDI messages your MIDI stop is transmitting.

- Turn MIDI logging off again on the general preferences screen.

Thanks.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:16 am

How is the encoder involved? I ask that because I couldn't duplicate Ken's situation using Roman's encoder.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby mdyde » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:18 am

Hello Ed,

The MIDI encoder will determine what MIDI messages it sends to Hauptwerk, and when. MIDI encoders usually also have some form of contact debouncing functionality to prevent spurious MIDI messages being sent.
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:20 am

That's my understanding.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby kaspencer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:35 pm

Thanks Martin for the very speedy reply! Sorry to disturb your Saturday ... and thanks for the comments Ed.

I will carry out the diagnostic test which you have described and forward the file to you, probably tomorrow, but I do not expect a really urgent reply! In the meantime I can give you some information about the hardware:

This is all part of my new organ (OPUS II) project, near to completion now - I'll put photographs up when it is complete. The left stop jamb has 60 illuminated stop buttons, based on micro-switches and LEDS, with a MIDI encoder (Midi gadgets Boutique mpc88xr) and decoder (Midi Gadgets Boutique mdec80br) which together also serve a number of other switch-based functions in the organ. The design and build is my own. The MGB documentation states that the encoder sends a Note On message on make and Note Off message on break. (The right stop jamb is different and is still under construction).

If I tap a stop switch very quickly, the behaviour is as predicted, and the stop responds as expected for both On and Off. However, it is plain to me that the micro-switches are not giving a clean make or break, as, if I tap the switch slowly, the stop is very likely to switch on and go off. (The MIDI OUT and LEDs are in-sync with the virtual stop action and are working as expected). As mentioned, setting the MIDI IN expectation in Hauptwerk to Note On removes the unreliability completely.

I am quite prepared for the issue to be diagnosed as due to erratic action on behalf of the micro-switches, but hopefully your study of the diagnostic file might reveal something which will obviate the need to amend the MIDI message set during Auto Detection.

Thanks very much indeed for your help!

Ken
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:46 pm

Hi Ken,

For my part, thanks for the interesting and thorough explanation esp regarding micro switches. I had debated that recently with someone and your explanation backs up my theory.

In my case, as a point of explanation, I'm using Rodgers lighted draw knobs which I have converted to LEDs from the former 5 VDC incandescent lamps.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby mdyde » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:53 pm

Thanks, Ken.

My guess is that probably the contact bounce from the microswitches is preventing Hauptwerk from being able to auto-detect the intended MIDI messages and event types. Perhaps there's a setting within the MIDI encoder's firmware that you could change to enable (or increase) its debouncing?
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby engrssc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:20 pm

Hi Ken,

Don't know if this is relevant, but it appears the Midi gadgets Boutique mpc88xr has been discontinued. A possible replacement being hwce2 MIDI Encoder which can be user programmable. All of this no doubt you already know. I'm just a little curious as I don't know much about that encoder.

My setup uses 2 - Midi-Hardware LITSW boards
https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=LITSW

with a MGR2 master controller
https://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=MRG2.

I temporarily replaced one (Rodgers) switch with a small micro switch I had. No apparent bounce issues altho this wasn't setup very scientifically, just quickly "hay-wired". The LITSW in this case was connected as an independent circuit.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby TheOrganDoc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:02 pm

I have had this problem many times, and have found that my Swell and crescendo Potentiometers are causing many false entry's ,
After a dose of quality pot lube on all Pots, All of these problems disappeared,

I am trying to develop, Pots that do not become Intermittent with AGE !

Wish me luck, anyone has ideas to eliminate this problem please reply.
I am considering installing a small capacitor across each pot to slow down its function a bit,
this will require some experimentation !
Thanks for reading this, I will post any Positive Results here. Best wishes to all Hauptwerkers ! :roll:
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby kaspencer » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:53 pm

Thanks Martin ...

... I'll submit the diagnostic file (tomorrow) as advised anyway, but I will fully understand if it transpires that nothing can be done. The mpc88xr has no means of making detailed adjustments, I cannot adjust the debounce - all that can be set is the MIDI channel and the initial note value for the first switch. And although it adds an extra stage of configuration, setting the Hauptwerk MIDI event type to Note On does resolve completely the unreliability.

Ed: you are indeed correct about the mpc88xr - it has been discontinued, but I bought mine at the earliest stage of design of my new console when they were still available. The left hand stop jamb also has 60 stop switches, but uses the fully programmable mpc64up, a sort-of successor to the mpc88xr. The decoder of the right stop jamb is the same as that of the left.

Mel: I am using high intensity rare earth magnets and Hall effect transistors for both swell and crescendo pedals. They don't suffer any wear. They are working but I don't have much experience of them in use as the organ isn't yet playable in anger.

Best wishes,

Ken
Kenneth Spencer
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Project Page: http://www.my-music.mine.nu/opus_ii.htm
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby mdyde » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:54 am

Thaks, Ken.

It might also be worth trying MIDI-OX ( http://www.midiox.com/ ) when Hauptwerk isn't running, just to make sure that each stop is indeed sending the MIDI messages that you intended it to. Another thought: you could also try contacting MIDI Gadgets Boutique just on the small off-chance that Jordan happens to have an updated firmware version available for your particular MIDI encoder (even though it has since been discontinued) with more debouncing functionality/options.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby kaspencer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:47 am

Thanks for that, Martin ...

... I do usually look at the MIDI data via MIDI-OX, but I haven't done that so far for this encoder; but I will!
I'll also contact Jordan just to check on the update possibility.

This afternoon, I'll get the diag. file and send it on. At the moment I'm wiring up the 60 switches & LEDs for the right hand jamb.

Best wishes,

Ken
Kenneth Spencer
Music Site: http://www.my-music.mine.nu
Project Page: http://www.my-music.mine.nu/opus_ii.htm
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby kaspencer » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:18 pm

Hello again, Martin.

I have just posted the Diagnostic File with MIDI data as requested.

I also examined the behaviour of the MGB encoder and my stop buttons via MIDI-OX and it seems that the buttons+encoder send a Note-Off message followed by a Note-On message for each press of the switch. This suggests to me that the micro-switches are ON by default - am I right? I have no way of altering that as far as I can see, nor is the encoder behaviour editable.

Please do not spend too much of your valuable time on this, because, unless there is something that can easily resolve the issue, I am quite prepared to adjust the MIDI event to a MIDI Note-On, as this does give reliable operation and is not too onerous to do.

I shall look forward to your comments.

Many thanks.

Ken
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Music Site: http://www.my-music.mine.nu
Project Page: http://www.my-music.mine.nu/opus_ii.htm
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Re: Defaults for Auto-detect stop controls

Postby mdyde » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:42 pm

Thanks, Ken.

Yes -- I can see that's what Hauptwerk received when you auto-detected the stop. That wasn't a MIDI implementation that Hauptwerk was designed to handle, I'm afraid, or that I've ever heard of any other hardware using. It's currently doing what would be expected in that situation.

Unless it's possible to change the way the microswitches behave (e.g. wiring to different pins on them), or using additional circuitry to invert their states, the only other thing I can suggest is to check whether there's a setting within the MIDI encoder's hardware/firmware that you could adjust to make the encoder invert the switch/pin states before it sends them as MIDI.
Best regards,
Martin.

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