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"Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

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"Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby dmsolis » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:04 am

I guess I'm unclear on how to get an organ set up for Surround Sound. I have the Zwolle surround sound sample set and have been playing it, assuming it was actually doing surround sound. But upon looking at the organ's instructions page on the Sonus Paradisi web site, it says that when installing it I need to set a number of the ranks to "Rear" in the Audio output group dropdown. I attempted to do that, but the drop down list only contains the single entry "[Default] Main output"; there is no "Rear" in the list.

What do I need to do to get Hauptwerk to run an organ in surround sound? Are any of my surround sound sample set running in surround sound?

I'm using four m-audio Keystation-61 keyboards going into an m-audio MIDISPORT 4x4 unit, which goes out to an m-audio Audiophile 2496 card in the PC. The PC is running Windows 10 with an i7 processor and 32gb of RAM.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I apologize if this is a commonly asked question, but I wasn't able to find anything in the forum on it (that I was able to understand, anyway).

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby Grant_Youngman » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:43 am

You have to create the group for the rear speakers yourself. Create a new audio group. You can call it "rear" or whatever name works for you. Put your surround speaker audio channels in that group. And then assign the rear samples to the group you've created.
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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:11 am

Hello Dan,

[Topic moved here.]

To add to Grant's reply (thanks, Grant), in order to have the choice of routing any given rank either to a 'front' stereo pair of speakers, or to a 'rear' stereo pair of speakers (which is how surround sample sets would usually be configured), first of all you need to have an audio interface that has at least four independently-routable analogue audio output channels (two to connect to your 'front' pair of speakers, and two to connect to your 'rear' pair).

Your M-Audio 2496 interface only has two analogue output channels ( http://www.m-audio.com/products/view/audiophile-2496 ), but it does also have a digital output, which I think I recall can be routed independently, so you could potentially buy a small DAC to convert its digital output to an extra pair of analogue output channels. However, the simpler alternative might be to get a new audio interface that has at least four analogue outputs. For example, M-Audio's 1010LT had eight analogue outputs and worked well (I used to have one), but M-Audio no longer officially support either the 2496 or the 1010LT for current operating systems. There are plenty of current audio interface models that have at least four independent analogue outputs from companies such as MOTU, RME, Focusrite, Presonus and M-Audio.

Once you have a suitable audio interface:

Have a read through the 'Audio routing and multi-channel audio' section in the guide (pages 164-168 in the current v4.2.1 version) for an overview of how audio is routed within Hauptwerk. Basically (with the Hauptwerk Advanced Edition), you would just need to:

- Make sure that the amplifier(s)/speakers for your front stereo pair of speakers are connected to analogue outputs 1+2 on your audio interface, and that those for your rear stereo pair of speakers are connected to analogue outputs 3+4 on your audio interface.

- Go to the 'General settings | Audio output groups' screen. Insert a new entry named (for example) 'Rear stereo output'. OK the screen, and just acknowledge the warning about the group being empty currently.

- Go to the 'General settings | Audio outputs' screen. Make sure that your audio interface's ASIO driver is selected as the audio output device for the existing entry, with its analogue output 1+2 device channels selected. Insert a new entry named (for example) 'Rear stereo output', select your audio interface's ASIO driver as the audio device for it, with its analogue output 3+4 device channels selected. Keep all of the outputs set to stereo (not mono). On the 'Routing' tab, select 'Rear stereo output' as the audio output group for the 'Rear stereo output' entry, and 'Main output' as the group for the 'Main output' entry. Doing so places the outputs in their appropriate groups. OK the screen. You shouldn't get any warning this time, if the settings have been configured correctly.

- Load the organ using 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio/memory options/routing'. Highlight all of the 'rear' ranks in the left-hand browse list, then select 'Rear stereo output' as the their audio output group. Doing so routes them to that group, and thus also to the (only) audio output which is within it, i.e. the 'Rear stereo output' audio output (configured above as audio interface channels 3+4). Check that your 'front' ranks are (still) routed to the 'Main output' group (for audio interface channels 1+2). OK the screen.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby dmsolis » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:43 pm

Thank you so much, Grant and Martin!
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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby mdyde » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:04 pm

Thanks, Dan.

You're very welcome.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby dmsolis » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:59 am

Sorry for my ignorance, but would the Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD work, to give the 4 channels I need for Surround Sound?

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-UMC404HD-BEHRINGER-U-PHORIA/dp/B00QHURLHM/ref=sr_1_3?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1519965034&sr=1-3&keywords=firewire+audio+interface

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby IainStinson » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:26 am

I have no experience with the device but thought it interesting.

Looking at the manual and the device driver documentation
- it has four independent outputs (two stereo pairs)
- it has ASIO drivers (really essential for Windows) for Windows 7 to 10.
- the mix controls are probably not useful with HW
- the headphone output mirrors one of the two stereo outputs (selected)
- be careful to get the right model (UMC404HD) as similarly named devices don't have the midi support or have fewer outputs...

It should work with Hauptwerk but I don't know if it would have any "issues" with sample rate changes (some devices don't correctly change rates and require some form of manual intervention).

There are some general comments on the web (but not about its use with HW) which suggest its reasonable value for money.

It is available in the UK for around £90.

There are other low cost USB four output plus midi in and out such as the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 2nd Gen
which cost around £150 in the UK. I think others have used this device - I use a larger Focusrite Pro-40 and am very happy with this.

Good luck!

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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby dmsolis » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:56 am

Ok. I've been looking at the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, and it has 4 unbalanced and 2 balanced outputs. How would I hook that up to the 2 RCA jacks on the back of my Receiver/Amplifier, to get the Surround Sound from Hautpwerk? Do I need 2 receivers?

Thanks,
Dan
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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby mdyde » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:40 am

Hello Dan,

You should be able to buy a pair of standard RCA cables to connect the (unbalanced) analogue line output RCA connectors on the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 ( https://uk.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/scarlett-2i4 ) to the pair of RCA analogue line input connectors on your amplifier/receiver. Each RCA connection will be a single mono channel.

If your amplifier/receiver has only two (RCA) audio input connectors, then presumably it can only amplify only one stereo sound source. Hence you would also need need another stereo amplifier and pair of speakers to go with it, or a pair of 'powered' speakers (e.g. powered recording studio monitors) that contain their own amplifiers.
Best regards,
Martin.

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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby dhm » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:42 pm

dmsolis wrote:How would I hook that up to the 2 RCA jacks on the back of my Receiver/Amplifier, to get the Surround Sound from Hauptwerk? Do I need 2 receivers?

One more thing for clarification: You mention a "receiver/amplifier".
Does this mean you are using a home-cinema-type surround-sound system?
If so, it almost certainly *won't* do you what you want it to do in Hauptwerk.
If I understand it correctly (and Martin and others will please correct me if I'm wrong), this kind of system has one (stereo) input, and several outputs. The system (not you or Hauptwerk) decides which audio signals go to which speakers.
What you need is at least two pairs of speakers, either "active" (i.e. with their own amps on board) or "passive" (i.e. with amplifiers for each pair). Then route the "front" samples to one pair of speakers, and the "rear" samples to the other pair.
Douglas Henn-Macrae
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http://www.midi-organs.eu / http://www.gundulf.org.uk
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Re: "Audio output group" dropdown box doesn't include "Rear"

Postby dmsolis » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:51 pm

Hi Douglas,

You're correct. That's what I was thinking, and that's why I was so confused.

Thanks,
Dan
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