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Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

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TomBentley

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Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostFri Aug 10, 2018 10:10 pm

With this advanced HW license, is it possible to route pedal ranks on the Paramount 320 to specific audio outputs? When choosing to load organ adjusting routing, etc., it doesn't appear to be able to route pipes by division which is perhaps normal for VTPO's for classical VPO's.

Thanks for any info you might have ... just trying to make sure i'm not missing something obvious.

Tom
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organtechnology

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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostSat Aug 11, 2018 1:06 am

TomBentley wrote:With this advanced HW license, is it possible to route pedal ranks on the Paramount 320 to specific audio outputs? When choosing to load organ adjusting routing, etc., it doesn't appear to be able to route pipes by division which is perhaps normal for VTPO's for classical VPO's.

Thanks for any info you might have ... just trying to make sure i'm not missing something obvious.

Tom


Hi Tom,

I believe it is done by ranks. You can route all the ranks in a division by selecting them and modifying which output they go to. This is one of the most complicated of the Hauptwerk processes and can get confusing. Of course, you will need to have the Advanced edition to have multiple channel output and you will need to go through the process of resetting the audio. I would use one of the ALT-x configurations for the experimenting. Send me your phone number PM and I will be glad to call and guide you through it.

Best regards,

Thomas
Last edited by organtechnology on Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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magnaton

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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostSat Aug 11, 2018 1:17 am

Hello Tom

Theatre organ pipe ranks are all unified. The last octave of the 16' ranks that appear in the pedal division are an extended octave of the keyboard rank. In fact, when a 16' pipe appears on the keyboard (i.e. Tibia 16' on the Great) the low C on keyboard is the same note as the Tibia low C in the pedal. Try it and you'll see. Thus the Tibia rank on the Paramount 3/20 has 97 notes to complete the 16', 8', 4', & 2' unification. Otherwise the notes would 'fall off'. Other ranks at different pitches work the same way.

If you want to route the pedals (the deeper tones of a rank) to separate channels, you'll have to use the Bass Split feature in the Load Ranks and Routing menu. In a real theatre organ the last octave (actually the last 11 notes) are on an offset chest as these pipes are too tall and wide to fit on the main chest.

I happen to have the Patamount 3/20 and do use the Bass Split so the 16' octave is routed to my large 3 way tower speakers and active sub. Here is a tip; try experimenting with the 'break point'. The logical split is at Midi note 47 (lowest B note) but depending on your speaker compliment, it doesn't have to be. I have a couple of ranks on my set up that are a few notes higher and one that is lower than Midi note 47. I experimented until I found the smoothest (unnoticeable) transition between the speaker sets.

Danny B
Last edited by magnaton on Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostSat Aug 11, 2018 5:22 pm

There is a very good guide to audio routing for the Paramount organs at
https://www.paramountorganworks.com/downloads/ParamountAudio.pdf

In my view, with relatively few channels (full range 8 (4 stereo pairs) + sub (stereo feed)): this gives excellent sound and indeed in my view this type of organisation works well for many other sample sets. The sub is fed with a mix down of all the other channels and I rely on the sub rejecting (not sounding) the higher frequencies ( I think the cut off is set to 45Hz which works well with my main full range speakers).

I am unconvinced about separating divisions (groups of ranks), unless each group has a sufficiently large number of speakers (at least 8 (4 stereo pairs)) and the space in which the virtual instrument sounds is relatively large.

I use five stereo pairs rather than the four described in the document linked above. I also generate reverberation for the Paramount and other dry organs using a Lexicon reverberation unit which feeds an additional stereo pair. For surround sound organs I use the rear channel provided by the sample set supplier for this additional pair of speakers/

Iain
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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostSat Aug 11, 2018 7:30 pm

Joe Hardy wrote that piece quite a while ago and I can vouch for it. Have used it and recommended it many times.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostSun Aug 12, 2018 9:42 pm

Thanks to all for the above advice. I do want to experiment with the bass split option suggested. I have been using the scheme recommended by Joe Hardy for paramount sets and while adequate I find the pedal ranks a but too quiet perhaps because I am routing main outputs to B2031's channels 1 thru 8 and sending mixdown of all of them to digital 9 and 10 on the FCA 610 to powered sub with two JBL tower speakes attached to sub, so perhaps it has something to do with the DAC signal strength going to the sub. I'll do a little more experimenting and see if I can improve somewhat on the base response and post anything I find.

Again many thanks too all for kind advice. Plan is to try bass split to FCA 9 and 10, and turn up the volume control on the sub and if that doesn't work will go back to Joe Hardy mixdown and since everything goes thru Reaper I'll boost the signal for 9 and 10 digital there since the FCA 610 only seems to have a volume control on analog channels 1 thru 8. Hope some that make sense to you guys!

Tom
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magnaton

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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostMon Aug 13, 2018 1:12 pm

IainStinson wrote:In my view, with relatively few channels (full range 8 (4 stereo pairs) + sub (stereo feed)): this gives excellent sound and indeed in my view this type of organisation works well for many other sample sets. The sub is fed with a mix down of all the other channels and I rely on the sub rejecting (not sounding) the higher frequencies ( I think the cut off is set to 45Hz which works well with my main full range speakers).

I am unconvinced about separating divisions (groups of ranks), unless each group has a sufficiently large number of speakers (at least 8 (4 stereo pairs)) and the space in which the virtual instrument sounds is relatively large.


I agree with you 100% for the Paramount organs and this design works as long as you have identical speakers in a single audio group. But what if you don’t? Case in point, I have a friend who enjoys the Paramount 3/20 but with various excellent speaker sets:
2 pairs of active studio monitors (in an array configuration)
1 pair of ESS AMT-3, (large 3 way towers)
1 pair of mid-sized audiophile grade speakers (ribbon tweeters) incorporated with a 15” active sub.
Any rank sent to studio monitor multi-channel array will sound great (that’s a given) but they can’t handle the low 16’ pitches or the punch of the bass drum, crash, or gong. So this is where the other 2 speaker sets get employed. We had fun one evening using a separate Alt-Config to load only a couple of ranks at a time and auditioned several of them with the passive speaker sets. IIRC the final routing design has the Open Diapason, Diaphonic Diapason, and Concert Flute routed to these. The passive sets worked very well and as a bonus we didn’t need to incorporate the Bass Split. The Tiba and Strings followed the example I gave in my previous post using the Bass Split. Oddly enough the English Post Horn I preferred in a passive speaker set since it seemed more tame verses in-your-face when coming from the studio monitors. Unfortunately the current logistics of my friend’s organ space is shared with his other hobbies, so the speakers are in kind of a “U” formation, speaking from behind and sides of the organist. We ended taming the Post Horn via the HW voicing tool and moved it back to the studio monitors.

It's now a fun organ to play. With certain registrations you can have sound coming from different areas all around you! 8)

Danny B.
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TheOrganDoc

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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostMon Aug 13, 2018 2:12 pm

Hello Thomas,

"Very good of you to share your knowledge with all of us" ! ! ! :D

Your instruction is Exactly the Same as in My MeliTzer here in South Florida, and It does sound pretty good, If I had the room, I would like to Splay my speakers as with (en Schemade-? Trumpets ) .
The only difference here is that I am using the Paramount 3/32, "Your Help is always appreciated" !

My Main Chamber is to the Left of the console and, Solo is Right of console, Sub is in back, in base of console, "enclosed tuned sealed and slot loaded 18" Pro. driver.
( My console is original WurliTzer Pipe, Hauptwerk-ified, All my Key, and Pedal Switches utilize my design, "IR-Opto Switch Devices" ! )

Mel Wexler = Retired Pipe Organ tech, "My very best wishes to you" !


organtechnology wrote:
TomBentley wrote:With this advanced HW license, is it possible to route pedal ranks on the Paramount 320 to specific audio outputs? When choosing to load organ adjusting routing, etc., it doesn't appear to be able to route pipes by division which is perhaps normal for VTPO's for classical VPO's.

Thanks for any info you might have ... just trying to make sure i'm not missing something obvious.

Tom


Hi Tom,

I believe it is done by ranks. You can route all the ranks in a division by selecting them and modifying which output they go to. This is one of the most complicated of the Hauptwerk processes and can get confusing. Of course, you will need to have the Advanced edition to have multiple channel output and you will need to go through the process of resetting the audio. I would use one of the ALT-x configurations for the experimenting. Send me your phone number PM and I will be glad to call and guide you through it.

Best regards,

Thomas
Mel..............TheOrganDoc...............
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TomBentley

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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostWed Aug 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Did a bit of testing today with good results but one odd problem. I decided to use an alt configuration to set up new routing, channels 1 thru 8 on B2031A's and digital 9 and 10 to sub with JBL's attached and did a bass split at note 47 to the sub and JBL's for 16's in the pedal ranks. Took me a minute to understand that unlike the classical organs, you have to do the adjustment on different named pipes, i.e. tibia clausa for the tibia's and concert flute for the bourd, etc. but after I got that straightened out was pleased with the result. Now here's the strange thing that's happening. If I bring a combination in that I had previous done under the old routing scheme on the main configuration into the alt configuration, it totally ignores the base split. If i cancel the registration and click on the 16 tibia pedal rank the split is there, but when I recall a previously done combination the tibia is back on the mains. I tried bringing in the old combination, turning off the pedal rank stops, turning them back on and re-saving the combination under a new name but with no effect. Any combination I completely write and save in the alt config maintains the split. I must be missing something as this makes no sense to me. Any ideas?

Tom
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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostThu Aug 16, 2018 1:08 pm

Above problem SOLVED!!!!! I didn't realize that you also had to split the trem part of the stop as well as the stop, i.e., concert flute AND concert flute trem. That fixed it. Sorry to be such a dummy and PITA.

Tom
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magnaton

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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostFri Aug 17, 2018 8:54 am

TomBentley wrote: Above problem SOLVED!!!!! I didn't realize that you also had to split the trem part of the stop as well as the stop, i.e., concert flute AND concert flute trem. That fixed it. Sorry to be such a dummy and PITA.
Tom


I take it the other ranks available at 16' pitch are okay? The two Diapason ranks would benefit to be split to the sub-woofer too.

Don't feel bad, I go to the voicing menu quite frequently by right clicking on the desired stop. When doing so in the Paramount organs you get the un-tremed rank by default. Many times this has bit me wondering why my adjustments aren't working. :|

BTW, the Paramount sets are faithful to real theatre organ design in that the lower octave offset ranks are NOT on trem. However to keep things copacetic these lower octaves still have separate wav samples between trem and un-trem.

Danny B.
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Re: Pipe Routing Paramount Organs

PostFri Aug 17, 2018 4:44 pm

Thanks Danny your help is most welcome. I've only done the 16's listed in the pedal section so far -- just getting started with the voicing controls to smooth some things out audio-wise but I will tomorrow split the Diaps as you suggest and see how that goes. Thanks for your comment about those lower ranks designated as tibia trem etc. were in fact off trem -- i had noticed that but wasn't sure were to start to change it -- now that I know its intentional I feel better about it. Spent the afternoon turning speakers this way that that to get the most cohesive balance is overall sound level in my odd shaped room that I could but once the old ears got tired I decided to start fooling with that more in the morning when my ears are fresh. Got a little confusion going on about the controls on the FCA 610, like main volume 1-2 and 1-8 and "mix in DAW" so I did a little twisting of them around and it seems best if I just put both knobs in the very middle. I've got a lot to learn about registrations and building from soft yet full and getting to the punch stage but looks like it will be lots of fun! Your help has been invaluable. Thanks again!

Tom

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