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Can't configure stops

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GrahamH

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Can't configure stops

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 5:44 pm

I am trying to set up a console with stop switches that send one note-on message for "engage stop" and a different note-on message for "disengage stop".
I was under the impression that Hauptwerk could auto-detect this kind of switch but it is not doing so.
When I try to manually configure the stop, the box for entering the "Off" note remains greyed out.
Am I trying to do the impossible or am I missing something?

Graham
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IainStinson

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSat Sep 15, 2018 6:21 pm

What type of console is it? Is it one that HW supports and have you specified the type of console to HW? (Run the organ wizard.) I have a Phoenix organ which I use and Phoenix consoles and some others send stop on messages on one midi channel and send the message to turn the stop off on another channel (either the next channel up or the next channel down...) HW deals with this when it knows the type of console...

When auto detecting the stop make sure you turn the stop on, the turn it off before pressing Done in the dialog box...

Iain
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GrahamH

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 3:28 am

Hi Iain and thank you for the response.

Although it is a proprietary console that I am working on, I have completely removed or by-passed the original electronics, so to all intents and purposes it is a DIY console tailored for Hauptwerk.
Unlike my previous consoles where I used illuminated arcade switches or home-made illuminated tabs that contained only one momentary switch this console has illuminated rocker tabs that contain two momentary switches. When you select "stop on", one switch is closed momentarily; when you select "stop off" the other switch is closed momentarily; when you release the tab it returns to a centre position
Rather than arrange for "stop on" messages to be on one channel and "stop off" messages to be on an adjacent channel, I opted for "stop on" messages to be in the range 0-31 and "stop off" messages to be in the range 32-63 (decimal). (I'm sure I read somewhere that Hauptwerk can handle this.)
The MIDI decoder that drives the stop LEDs responds to messages in the range 0-31.

The problem seems to be that I chose to go for note-on messages because that's what I've always used and they work fine with single momentary switches that toggle the stop.
But when you release these rocker tabs, they send a note-off message, and Hauptwerk interprets that as being the "stop off" message.
(So I can in fact auto-configure them as single momentary toggle switches. As such they activate the on-screen stop and the corresponding physical LED lights up as expected in response to the matching MIDI out message from Hauptwerk.)

After a night's sleep it has just dawned on me that on the couple of occasions when I dealt with proprietary consoles or rocker tabs in the past, they generated program change messages, not note-on messages - and I'm wondering if I dropped an almighty clanger by specifying MIDI encoders that generate note-on messages (and corresponding decoders that respond to note-on messages rather than program change messages).
Or is there a way to make note-on messages work?
Hopefully somebody can put me out of my misery!

Graham
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adrianw

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 3:49 am

Just change the input to "Momentary piston: Midi note on".
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GrahamH

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 8:55 am

Just change the input to "Momentary piston: Midi note on".

If only life were that simple!
In fact, Hauptwerk selects that input option when I let it auto-detect the stop.
But it won't wait until I switch off the stop to generate the "deselect stop" message. It assumes the note-off message that is generated when the stop tab returns to the neutral (central default) position is the "de-select stop" message ….

Graham
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adrianw

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 9:09 am

Are you sure?. I believe that HW will select the "Stop or Hold Piston: Midi note
On of Off" if your tabs work as you describe. You need to then make the input change manually.

I am aware that this does not give you exactly the functionality you might desire but it will give you a working system, and one that works the way mine and most other organs with illuminated tabs works (ie pressing them toggles the tab). There is no way to have HW do exactly what you describe with note on/off messages.
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jkinkennon

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 11:16 am

I do something like this when outputting data to control SAMs. I like the idea of grouping the outputs onto individual 32-output boards with one board handling ON and another handling OFF pulses.

Similarly with inputs, it is easy to modify an encoder program to do exactly what you want. Then the stops will auto-detect without the need of extra configuration steps. Have you contacted the encoder manufacturer? Most would be happy to make the changes, hopefully at a fair price. If not look to another manufacturer.

I do not believe the current HW choices allow the exact functionality you need without the encoder modification.

EDIT: Some encoders allow changes to their translation tables by the end user. It would be worth investigating whether it is possible to edit such encoders without the need to request a special design.
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GrahamH

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 1:50 pm

it will give you a working system, and one that works the way mine and most other organs with illuminated tabs works (ie pressing them toggles the tab).


I have a coupler rail with 32 home-made tab switches that operate like that on my own console, but they are not rocker tabs with a centre pivot.
The whole point of rocker tabs is that you press the bottom of the tablet to engage the stop and you press the top of the tablet to disengage the stop.
I temporarily have the rocker tabs that are the subject of this discussion configured so that pressing the bottom of the tablet toggles the stop, and I could arrange for pressing the top of the tablet to also toggle the stop, but that's hardly satisfactory!

I have just proved that I could achieve what I want with program change messages - I did so simply by using a couple of buttons that generate different program change messages, and Hauptwerk auto-detected them immediately. Pressing one button activates the on-screen stop; pressing the other button deactivates it.

But before I go cap-in-hand to my encoder supplier (who I'm sure will cooperate), hopefully Martin will clarify things.
Hauptwerk clearly implies that it can be achieved using note-on messages - just check out the Manual Configuration screen and hold the Help question mark over the 'Off' note box.

Graham
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adrianw

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 2:30 pm

that pressing the bottom of the tablet toggles the stop, and I could arrange for pressing the top of the tablet to also toggle the stop, but that's hardly satisfactory!


Actually, that is a matter of preference - that is how my own (and these days most) lighted rocker tabs do work. For myself, I find it is just irritating to have to press the top or bottom - I just stab at anything lit to turn it off and anything unlit to turn it on.

Anyway, it seems you do not need my help to get your system working. Sadly, you can't do what you want whatever the help box says - the option is grayed out. Perhaps you should have sent a private message to Martin rather than raising it for forum help if you already knew the answer..
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GrahamH

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSun Sep 16, 2018 2:38 pm

But I didn't know the answer until this evening - and even now I'm not totally clear! But talking it over on the forum and reading what others have to say has helped me get to where I am.
Thanks for your input.

G
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GrahamH

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Re: Can't configure stops - SOLVED

PostSat Sep 22, 2018 8:30 am

@ Iain, Adrian and John
If you guys have been thinking that your responses did not help very much or that I was not taking them on board - think again!
Your responses (and the absence of any other responses) prodded me into "thinking outside the box" and as a result of some invaluable collaboration by fellow-Hauptwerkian Nick Nelson, who very graciously took the time to experiment and come up with an alternative way of programming his MIDIMega8e encoder ( http://forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12849&p=94757&hilit=+encoder#p94757 ), we now have a solution that meets all the requirements.

Basically Nick produced an encoder that sends only note-on messages (for MIDI note numbers 00-31) when the rocker tabs' "STOP ON" switches are closed, but no message when the switches are released and open again; and that sends only note-off messages (again for MIDI note numbers 00-31 on the same MIDI channel) when the rocker tabs' "STOP OFF" switches are closed, but no message when they open again.
Consequently, when Hauptwerk is configured to send matching MIDI-out, these messages can be understood by the MIDI decoder that drives the stop tab indicator LEDs and that is programmed to respond to note-on/offs for MIDI note numbers 00-32.
Hauptwerk readily auto-detects the stop switches, and the LEDs are automatically catered for with no need for separate manual intervention (which would have been necessary if we had settled for letting the switches generate program change messages).

The upshot of all this is that a c2002 vintage Viscount Concerto III console that was physically in excellent shape but destined for the tip because it had been pronounced "dead" electronically, has been given a new lease of life as a fully-functional dedicated Hauptwerk console. And its owner will very shortly be joining the ranks of the Hauptwerk community.

Regards
Graham
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jkinkennon

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Re: Can't configure stops

PostSat Sep 22, 2018 11:51 am

Thanks for the update Graham. Nick Nelson would understand the problem and know how to do the modifications. Great to know its all sorted out.

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