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HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

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mdyde

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 8:09 am

Hello pytprs,

You can add reverb to any bus at all that you like. The main Hauptwerk user guide covers it all in depth.
Best regards, Martin.
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ppytprs

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 9:07 am

With respect Martin, I'm not sure the user guide does cover this in depth. I have read it and worked through it on my system.
I also have considerable professional experience with mixers, and I couldn't say that I really understand this one.

I'm sure that at some point in the process, I've found the reverb greyed out, but it was a few weeks ago now, so I can't remember exactly.

I'll have a go with it later with the master bus suggestion.

What are intermediate busses for?
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mdyde

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 10:03 am

Hello ppytrps,

Try just thinking of the Audio Mixer as a conventional recording studio mixer desk but rotated through 90 degrees. The buses (mixer channels) are down the left-hand side, and the right-hand pane shows the setting for the selected bus(es). The 'Sends' section near the bottom of the right-hand pane is like the set of 'aux sends' knobs on a conventional mixing desk -- you use it to route audio from one or more buses to one or more master/intermediate mix buses (like 'aux buses' on a conventional mixing desk).

There are two types of mix buses: master, and intermediate. Normally you would only need to use the master mix buses -- just ignore the intermediate mix buses. Page 184 (v5.0.0 version) in the user guide explains them.

[The intermediate mix buses also also routing to master mix buses (whereas master mix buses can't be routed anywhere further, except to audio device channels), so that you can use them for more complex (and unusual) routing, such as mixing some primary buses down to intermediate mix buses, and then mixing those intermediate mix buses down further to master mix buses.]
Best regards, Martin.
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ppytprs

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:10 pm

Ok, so I've just looked at it again.

Ranks are routed to a mixer bus group. The bus group contains 4 primary mixer busses - which have the speaker outputs attached. From here I can add reverb to each output separately. From here I can also route the audio to the master busses.
So I can't add reverb on the master bus because I'm hearing the output before then.

So it works like this:
Image

So could I set it up somehow like this?:
Image

or this?:
Image

As I understand it, I can't, because in order to get multi channel output, the speaker outputs have to be from primary busses attached to the bus group. The master or intermediate busses are a mixdown of those multiple outputs.
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:39 pm

Hello ppytprs,

If you want the same impulse response reverb to be applied into the audio output of each of the 4 primary buses (which I think is what you mean), then the simplest way to do that is simply to select the reverb directly on each of those 4 primary buses (instead applying it via any mix buses).

(You could technically do it in a complex, but slightly more-efficient way, by using 4 master mix buses for your 4 pairs of speakers, selecting your audio device channels for those [instead of for the primary buses], sending each of your 4 primary buses just to its corresponding master mix bus, plus also sending all 4 of the 4 primary buses to a single intermediate mix bus, applying reverb to that single intermediate mix bus, then outing that intermediate mix bus to all 4 of the master mix buses. The 4 master mix buses would then have their corresponding primary buses signals, plus the mixed reverb signal via the intermediate bus. However, to keep it simple, I'd instead recommend just applying the reverb directly to each of the 4 primary buses, as above.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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ppytprs

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 2:50 pm

But if you put 4 primary busses into 1 intermediate bus, then doesn't it mix the 4 signals together, so that when you output it to your 4 master busses, they then have the same signal, rather than the 4 different ones you started with?
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 3:55 pm

Hello ppytprs,

ppytprs wrote:But if you put 4 primary busses into 1 intermediate bus, then doesn't it mix the 4 signals together, so that when you output it to your 4 master busses, they then have the same signal, rather than the 4 different ones you started with?


Correct. The reverb would then be applied to a mixed signal from all of the buses.

If that isn't what you want, then you need to apply the reverb directly within each of the 4 primary buses (instead of via a mix bus), effectively like using it as an 'insert effect' on a real mixing desk (instead of via an aux send).
Best regards, Martin.
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ppytprs

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 4:35 pm

Ok. Well there would be no point in creating a multi speaker output, and then mixing it back down to a single output! Might as well have created a single mix in the first place.

So in conclusion, there's no way to apply one reverb globally to everything in a multichannel system.

An audio mixer would have it's inserts on the input channels (ranks) and groups, not the outputs. To think of it like a hardware system, it's like putting reverb units in between the mixer outputs and the speakers.

Thinking how the software might work is beyond my little brain! Is there a way (for a future version) to apply the reverb like an insert to the group (like my second diagram above), such that if you had a group with many speaker outputs, you'd only need to apply it once rather than to every separate output? I guess it wouldn't be any more efficient in the processing, as it'd still be applying reverb to every output, but would be easier in the operation.

For my actual use, this doesn't actually matter, I use a wet set, as I guess most of us do at the moment. I'm just trying to get my head around it. But with this new reverb engine, are we heading to a different way of using HW? Will dry + reverb become the new thing? It's against the entire principle of the software as it was isn't it? I'm trying to slowly do some experiments of dry + reverb vs wet. I haven't decided what I think about it yet.
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 4:54 pm

It's not that complex to set up reverbs on multiple buses, since you can multiselect all the buses to apply reverb to, then set the parameters once.

I have 8 intermediate buses used as aux reverb adders for the 8 primary buses going to my 8 output pairs. That lets me send reverb for each speaker pair to a different speaker pair across the room. (Only for the presets with added reverb.) No mixdown into the reverb.

The only limitation I found configuring this is that the reverb Select button is grayed out if multiple buses are selected. So I selected the reverb for each bus, then adjusted the other parameters all at once by selecting all the reverb buses. But in most cases, I'm using SP IRs with different mic positions on different buses anyway.
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 7:21 pm

Hi Iain,

From your notes (https://iainstinson.com/hauptwerk/notes-v1.pdf)
Master Mix buses which can: Send output to another Master Mix bus • Send output to an Intermediate Mix bus


Maybe that is not correct? See p.184 of the HW user guide. Unless I misunderstand… Thanks for your efforts!
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 8:01 pm

mnailor wrote:I have 8 intermediate buses used as aux reverb adders for the 8 primary buses going to my 8 output pairs.


Why not just put the reverb on the 8 primary busses?
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 8:16 pm

Thanks for you comment. You are correct the notes were wrong. I have now corrected them.
Iain
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostTue Jan 07, 2020 8:19 pm

ppytprs wrote:
mnailor wrote:I have 8 intermediate buses used as aux reverb adders for the 8 primary buses going to my 8 output pairs.


Why not just put the reverb on the 8 primary busses?


Because I want the reverb output to be on different speakers from the primaries. Like front vs rear, for example.
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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostWed Jan 08, 2020 7:53 am

mnailor wrote:
ppytprs wrote:
mnailor wrote:I have 8 intermediate buses used as aux reverb adders for the 8 primary buses going to my 8 output pairs.


Why not just put the reverb on the 8 primary busses?


Because I want the reverb output to be on different speakers from the primaries. Like front vs rear, for example.


Not sure I understand, but whatever works!
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mdyde

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Re: HW 5.0 - Audio Mixer “tutorial”

PostWed Jan 08, 2020 8:34 am

ppytprs wrote:So in conclusion, there's no way to apply one reverb globally to everything in a multichannel system.
...
Is there a way (for a future version) to apply the reverb like an insert to the group (like my second diagram above), such that if you had a group with many speaker outputs, you'd only need to apply it once rather than to every separate output? I guess it wouldn't be any more efficient in the processing, as it'd still be applying reverb to every output, but would be easier in the operation.


Hello ppytprs,

Just select the reverb for all of the primary mixer buses in your group. As nmailor mentioned, you can multi-select the buses to change their settings at once (with the exception of changing the selected reverb file itself) -- it only takes a few seconds to configure. Alternatively, apply the reverb to one of the master mix buses, and feed the output of that to a separate pair of speakers (e.g. positioned behind you), which is what most people who use multi-channel audio traditionally prefer to do anyway, since it gives the effect of the reverb coming from behind you, whilst keeping the drier direct sound coming from your main sets of speakers in front of you.

ppytprs wrote:But with this new reverb engine, are we heading to a different way of using HW? Will dry + reverb become the new thing? It's against the entire principle of the software as it was isn't it? I'm trying to slowly do some experiments of dry + reverb vs wet. I haven't decided what I think about it yet.


There's no intention at all to change the focus of Hauptwerk to dry sample sets + reverb, above wet sample sets. Hauptwerk has always supported wet or dry sets equally. The reverb functionality is included simply because lots of people wanted it (especially those people who prefer to use dry/semi-dry sample sets). You certainly don't have to use it, and wet sample sets won't be supported any less than they always have been.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
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