It is currently Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:13 am


HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

Hauptwerk software technical support only. Please make sure you have read the manual, tutorials and FAQ pages before requesting support.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

mwdiers

Member

  • Posts: 74
  • Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:33 am

HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostSat Dec 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I just want to document this here in case someone else runs into the same behavior.

Today was my first extensive work on HW5 using the MasterWorks Skinner. I am using the internal recorder in Hauptwerk, and sequencing from Logic Pro using the AU bridge until the crashing bug gets fixed. Logic does not receive any audio, and I do not have Hauptwerk setup to output audio to the bridge. My project sample rate matches the organ (48K).

Just for the sake of fully documenting my setup: Macbook Pro 16", Focusrite Saphire 6i6 Gen 2, Catalina 10.15.2. At present I am using Loopback and Audio Hijack to play Hauptwerk through my mastering chain (just FabFilter Pro R and Pro C2 for reverb and compression). This is for monitoring purposes only. However, the problem I describe here happened even if output directly to my audio interface, and it also happened in the dry file recorded direct to disk by Hauptwerk.

So, the issue:

When I output my first recording, I immediately knew something was off. The organ sounded badly out of tune. So I went back and re-recorded the piece I was working in, keeping it entirely dry.

As I was listening, I could hear the organ go progressively out of tune, worse and worse, whole ranks at a time until it was more than a semitone off overall, but very dissonant. For example, the Flute 4 on the Great was about 75 cents sharp. Also the volume level started shifting, fading in and out.

I restarted Hauptwerk, and tried again, and noticed the same behavior. It started out still somewhat dissonant, but again got progressively worse. So I went into Organ Preferences, and disabled everything but interpolation, and set all the randomization adjustments to 0%.

The organ then stayed perfectly in tune, and had no issues.

I then re-enabled everything (by unchecking all the boxes), and set all the randomizations back to 100%.

From then on the organ was fine, and I ran 7 hours without issue. I have not been able to reproduce the problem since.
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostSun Dec 15, 2019 7:17 am

Hello mwdiers,

My first guess, given that it became gradually worse, would be that the organ was gradually 'running out of wind'. If that was the case, disabling the wind supply model was probably the relevant factor that eliminated it. Hauptwerk v5 processes background models (wind supply, tremulants, etc.) at higher time resolutions than v4 did, which gives improved realism in principle, and works very well with most sample sets, but it might be that case that the wind supply model in the Skinner sample set's organ definition could benefit from some optimising for v5.

(Another small possibility is that the increased CPU load from the higher time resolution background model processing resulted in the wind model struggling, but I wouldn't expect that to be an issue on your powerful recent CPU, unless conceivably Logic was also using a lot of CPU resources, which seems unlikely.)

Note also that you can make v5 process the background models at the same (lower) time resolution that v4 did by ticking the 'Reduce ... model response/accuracy/quality ...' option on the 'Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine' screen tab.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline
User avatar

mwdiers

Member

  • Posts: 74
  • Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:33 am

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostSun Dec 15, 2019 2:03 pm

mdyde wrote:Hello mwdiers,

My first guess, given that it became gradually worse, would be that the organ was gradually 'running out of wind'. If that was the case, disabling the wind supply model was probably the relevant factor that eliminated it. Hauptwerk v5 processes background models (wind supply, tremulants, etc.) at higher time resolutions than v4 did, which gives improved realism in principle, and works very well with most sample sets, but it might be that case that the wind supply model in the Skinner sample set's organ definition could benefit from some optimising for v5.

(Another small possibility is that the increased CPU load from the higher time resolution background model processing resulted in the wind model struggling, but I wouldn't expect that to be an issue on your powerful recent CPU, unless conceivably Logic was also using a lot of CPU resources, which seems unlikely.)

Note also that you can make v5 process the background models at the same (lower) time resolution that v4 did by ticking the 'Reduce ... model response/accuracy/quality ...' option on the 'Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine' screen tab.


Hmm. Yeah, I have no doubt that it has something to do with the wind supply model, but I would not expect that to push everything sharp, but the opposite. Further, the amount of wind was low-to-moderate. I rarely push this instrument into much polyphony. (For examples of what I was working on, go to http://wittenberglutheran.org/music and look for at anything recorded on 12/14/2019, hymns 88 and following mostly).

As you suspected, my CPU usage is very low. This is running on an 8-core i9 with 64G of RAM. At present, Logic is not even processing the audio, and when it was happening, I tested without Audio Hijack and my plugins, and Hauptwerk configured to go straight to my interface to keep things as simple as possible.

So, let's call it a fluke for now. If it happens again, I'll try to save a recording with both audio and MIDI so you can attempt to reproduce it.
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostSun Dec 15, 2019 2:17 pm

Thanks for the update.

mwdiers wrote:Yeah, I have no doubt that it has something to do with the wind supply model, but I would not expect that to push everything sharp, but the opposite. Further, the amount of wind was low-to-moderate. I rarely push this instrument into much polyphony.


It might well still just be the case that the wind model definition in the organ definition file could benefit from a little optimising for v5, since v5's background model processing higher time resolution can have a small effect on flow rates/pressures/oscillations, which might be enough to accumulate to noticeable differences in this particular case. If so, the 'Reduce ... model response/accuracy/quality ...' organ preference should cause it to behave as v4 did for that particular organ.

Anyway, if it's working again now, then that's good.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostMon Dec 16, 2019 2:14 pm

Hello again mwdiers,

Another gentleman had a similar problem with the Skinner, and it turned out that the problem was just that its virtual 'blower key' switch was turned off: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18003&p=135943#p135934
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline

jtoiv1

Member

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostMon Dec 16, 2019 2:43 pm

I have same kind of problems with Bätz and Lohman (sygsoft) samplesets after upgrading HW5.
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostMon Dec 16, 2019 3:22 pm

Hello jtoiv1,

I don't have those samples sets here currently, but, in those sample sets:

- If you tick the 'Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine: Reduce ... model response/accuracy/quality ...' option, does it eliminate the issue?

- Also, either way, if you tick the 'Organ settings | Wind supply model | Audio engine: Disable main wind supply model' option, does it eliminate the issue?

Thanks.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline

jtoiv1

Member

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostMon Dec 16, 2019 4:29 pm

No, it did not. The organ plays even the blower off, but sometimes out of tune and loud. Also swell pedal has no effect, I can hear the doors moving and see the swell pedal moving but no effect to the sound. Something is broken but I can not found out what.... Installed them again and to the another mac, but the same.

jarmo
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostTue Dec 17, 2019 5:29 am

Thanks, Jarmo.

To confirm, you mean that *neither* of those things affected the issue?

Also, on the 'Organ settings | Organ preferences | Audio engine' screen tab, are all of the '... adjustment %' parameters still at their defaults of 100%?

Does setting all of those adjustments to 0% eliminate the issue?

If not, could you try contacting Fred de Jong (Sygsoft) to see whether he's aware of, and can reproduce, the issue? Hauptwerk v5 betas have been with sample set producers for almost 12 months, so hopefully he'll have had a chance to test and work with those sets quite a bit in v5. Also, Fred will know how their organ definitions work internally, e.g. how the swell boxes are implemented.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline

jtoiv1

Member

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostTue Dec 17, 2019 1:34 pm

Basically it seems that nothing helps with this.

I already contacted with him earlier, but he replied that he does not have time for this at the moment.
I am not hurry with this, but just think if someone else have found the same issue - or have any ideas what I should try (or if this is somekind of bug)

Jarmo
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostTue Dec 17, 2019 2:52 pm

Hello Jarmo,

Does 'Organ settings | Reset all voicing ...' for the relevant sample sets help?

Also, does the issue occur for you with St. Anne's? Or only with those two sample sets?

Also, please try launching Hauptwerk via a a 'spare' 'Hauptwerk (alt config N)' configuration (desktop short-cut), then using 'General settings | General configuration wizard' to reset everything to defaults, then select you standard audio device (not the VST/AU Link), then load one of the two organs exhibiting the problem, then use the 'Organ settings | Organ configuration wizard' to reset all settings to defaults. Does it still exhibit the tuning/volume issue?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline

jtoiv1

Member

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostTue Dec 17, 2019 3:56 pm

mdyde wrote:Does 'Organ settings | Reset all voicing ...' for the relevant sample sets help?


No

mdyde wrote:Also, does the issue occur for you with St. Anne's? Or only with those two sample sets?


No, all the others are ok

mdyde wrote:Also, please try launching Hauptwerk via a a 'spare' 'Hauptwerk (alt config N)' configuration (desktop short-cut), then using ...


Did not help.

-jarmo-
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostThu Dec 19, 2019 1:33 pm

Hello Jarmo,

I'm currently downloading the v5 Sygsoft Bätz sample set, and will let you know whether its tuning/volume seems to be stable for me. However, it's a large sample set to download, and I don't currently have the v4 version to compare. (I expect I could request it from Sygsoft if needed.)

Do you happen to have and have tried any other smaller Sygsoft sample sets (e.g. Leens or Haringe, both of which I have for v4 here) that exhibit the issue?

Also, with the Bätz sample set, if you use 'Organ | Load organ, adjusting rank audio memory option' to load a few ranks (enough to exhibit, but few enough not use more than, say, 25% of you computer's RAM), do you still experience the issue?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Offline

jtoiv1

Member

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:21 pm

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostThu Dec 19, 2019 2:18 pm

Hi,

Unfortunately I don't have any other Sygsoft sample sets.

Got the same issue even you load only small set of samples (I already test sample with 2 macs, one with 24 ram and one with 16 ram -both did not work).
I had these sample sets quite long without problems with v4.

And I do not have any issues with any others, like Saint Eucaire, St Anne, sample sets.

jarmo
Offline
User avatar

mdyde

Moderator

  • Posts: 11849
  • Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:19 pm
  • Location: UK

Re: HW5 Erratic tuning drift and volume changes

PostThu Dec 19, 2019 2:58 pm

Thanks, Jarmo.

I've contacted Sygsoft to get v4 download links so that I can compare them here in v4 vs. v5, and will let you know the results.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
Next

Return to Technical support

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests