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Mixer Presets and audio routing

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MPiercey

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Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostThu Jan 09, 2020 12:34 am

Hi all, I have a question for those that consider themselves proficient with the new mixer system. I have configured my 80+ speakers into 7 different buss groups that I use for large organs, and everything seems to be working correctly. However, when I load a small organ using this setup (the 7 busses), a lot of the speakers dont get used as I assign everything in a division to its own buss group. This means for a 2 manual organ (only 3 busses used), half the speakers are not being used.

I think the solution is to use a different one of the 8 Mixer Presets, and reconfigure all 80+ speakers to new speaker pairs and then assign those new speaker pairs to just 3 buss groups (for Great, Swell and Pedal) (assuming it is for the 2 manual organ). But before I spend all the time setting up the different Mixer Presets (for 2 manuals, 3 manuals etc.,), I wanted to make sure that using the Mixer Presets is the best way to accomplish this.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mel Piercey.
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostThu Jan 09, 2020 6:29 am

Hello Mel,

That would certainly be a valid way to approach it.

Another, simpler, option might be just to assign ranks individually amongst your existing 7 groups (instead of assigning all ranks in a division to the same group).
Best regards, Martin.
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IainStinson

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostThu Jan 09, 2020 6:34 am

For my far smaller configuration I use audio presets which are more appropriately configured for different instruments. (I have one preset for 2 channel surround, 1 for 3 channel surround, 1 for stereo, ....). I would agree with you that having different presets for different "classes" of sample sets would be a good direction of travel.

Have you tried having 12 pairs in a group with the cycling algorithm? Depending on speaker placement I would have expected this to yield good results. You could then assign different groups of ranks (divisions?) to the three or so sets of 12 pairs.

Iain
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MPiercey

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostThu Jan 09, 2020 8:25 am

Hi Martin and Ian, thanks for you thoughts. I seem to remember when HW4 first came out, that there was a discussion that the routing algorithm could not handle more than 12 (?) speakers in a group. Has that been updated now in HW5?

Also, any recomdations as to what would sound better - 40 stereo pairs, or 80 mono? I know if there are just a few speakers, stereo is better to help cut down on the intermodulation noise, but I would also think that at some point (some larger number of speakers), that would no longer apply.

Thanks,
Mel Piercey.
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostThu Jan 09, 2020 8:43 am

Hello Mel,

MPiercey wrote:I seem to remember when HW4 first came out, that there was a discussion that the routing algorithm could not handle more than 12 (?) speakers in a group. Has that been updated now in HW5?


The algorithms that are based on the specific note within the octave (e.g. the 'tone matching' ones) ones inherently can't benefit by more than 12 buses/outputs in a group, but the other algorithms will take advantage of more.

MPiercey wrote:Also, any recomdations as to what would sound better - 40 stereo pairs, or 80 mono? I know if there are just a few speakers, stereo is better to help cut down on the intermodulation noise, but I would also think that at some point (some larger number of speakers), that would no longer apply.


It's a matter of personal preference, but my personal opinion is that if using a wet or semi-wet/semi-dry sample set then I would prefer keeping things in stereo. For truly dry samples (and certainly those that were recorded in mono anyway) then mono might be worth considering if you have plenty of speakers.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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MPiercey

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostThu Jan 09, 2020 11:41 pm

Ok..., well it now looks like I'm not going to be able to use the Mixer Presets the way I wanted because it appears as if I'm not able to reassign the audio stereo pairs to a second configuration. Yes, I can change the assignment, but that change would apply to all the Presets, not one assignment per Preset.

As I now understand it, the General Settings, Audio Device and Channels window is where the stereo pairs are set up. By default on this window, chanel 0001 & 0002 are pair 1, channels 0003 & 0004 are set to pair 2 etc... Because of the large number of speakers I have, they are all fairly close together, so I set channels 0001 & 0003 as pair 1 by using the drop down arrow of audio channel 002, and changing it to device channel 0003. I did similar for pair 2 as well by changing audio channel 003 to device channel 0002. This puts channel 1 & 3 together and channel 2 & 4 together as pairs, which is what I needed.

The problem is that all the Presets appear to use just this 1 configuration. I was hoping to have 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 in Preset 1, and 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 in Preset 2 (this is a drastic over simplification of the changes I made, but it explains my problem).

Am I going about this the wrong way, and is there another place where I should be doing this or is HW5's routing really limited in this way?

I have noticed one other odd thing on the Audio Device and Channel window (which leads me to think I'm missing something), and that is that the 'Audio output (device) channel(s)', 'Channel(s)' drop down arrow displays channels 1 & 2 as a pair, and channels 2 & 3 as a pair, and channels 3 & 4 as a pair etc... which does not make sense to me, so maybe I'm missing something. Is there a reason for this semi-duplication of channels?

Martin, clarification would be appreciated :roll:

Thanks,
Mel Piercey.
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostFri Jan 10, 2020 7:56 am

Hello Mel,

It's true that if you want to re-map the order of device channels such that non-consecutive device channel numbers could be made available as stereo pairs then you can only do that globally (via the General settings | Audio device and channels' screen), in that the channel re-ordering would apply equally to all mixer presets.

MPiercey wrote: was hoping to have 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 in Preset 1, and 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 in Preset 2


That isn't possible, I'm afraid. You can certainly use different device channels for different presets, but the right-hand channel number of a stereo pair must always be one higher than the left-hand channel number [except that channel numbers can be re-ordered globally, via the device screen, as above].

Why would would you want the channel numbers to be consecutive (R=L+1) for some organs, but non-consecutive (R=L+2) for others?

MPiercey wrote:I have noticed one other odd thing on the Audio Device and Channel window (which leads me to think I'm missing something), and that is that the 'Audio output (device) channel(s)', 'Channel(s)' drop down arrow displays channels 1 & 2 as a pair, and channels 2 & 3 as a pair, and channels 3 & 4 as a pair etc... which does not make sense to me, so maybe I'm missing something. Is there a reason for this semi-duplication of channels?


(I assume you meant to write the Audio Mixer screen.) The reason for the overlaps in the available values is just that some people might, for example, want channel 1 to be used for a mono output (e.g. a sub-woofer) and the channel numbers above that to be stereo pairs. I.e. it allows for people who have some mono, and some stereo, stereo outputs interspersed.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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mnailor

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostFri Jan 10, 2020 8:48 am

Couldn't an Alt Config have a different channel order to make stereo pairs out of 1 3, 2 4, ...?
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostFri Jan 10, 2020 9:18 am

Yes -- an 'alt config' could certainly be used for that.
Best regards, Martin.
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MPiercey

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostSat Jan 11, 2020 6:14 pm

Hi Martin,
Why would would you want the channel numbers to be consecutive (R=L+1) for some organs, but non-consecutive (R=L+2) for others?
, I had my 'base' set up for a 4 manual organ with all the speakers routed to 4+1 (pedal) divisions that were very spatially defined. When I use this set up for a 2 or 3 manual instrument, there are speakers (because of their location) that are not used, and I wanted to use all of them if possible. I was hoping to be able to 'steal' some speakers from the unused divisions and incorporate them into the used divisions of the 2/3 manual instruments using the different Presets.

Seeing this is not possible, I have reconfigured my existing speaker allocation so that the divisions are not as confined and are spread out more so I can incorporate some of the unused speaker pairs without having to reassign the audio pairs. I was aware of the option of using the Alt-Configs, but was hoping that I would not have to stop and then restart HW to change the configuration. I believe what I have now though will work for me.

Much appreciate your assistance.
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostSun Jan 12, 2020 5:44 am

Thanks, Mel.

You're very welcome. Glad to hear you've come up with an appropriate solution.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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MPiercey

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostSun Jan 12, 2020 9:08 pm

Ok, now that I have the basics of the routing down, I'm having a problem with adding reverb. I am able to add reverb to 1 stereo pair as described in the manual, but I would really like to route it to about 1/3 of my speakers (half of which would be duplication of my main speakers in front that receive the main signal, the other half being rear speakers). With the large space my speakers occupy, it is very noticeably fake with the reverb coming from just 1 pair in the front and 1 pair in the back. At first I thought a buss group would work, but I really don't want the reverb moving around, and would prefer it to come continuously from a set group of speakers.

Another idea was to use additional Perspectives (1 additional for each additional pair of speakers, so about another 5 additional Perspectives on top of the existing 4), but there are only 4 of them (unless I can add additional ones?). What would your recommendation be to accomplish this Martin?

Thanks,
Mel
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 5:37 am

Hello Mel,

MPiercey wrote:Another idea was to use additional Perspectives (1 additional for each additional pair of speakers, so about another 5 additional Perspectives on top of the existing 4), but there are only 4 of them (unless I can add additional ones?).


There are exactly (and only) four 'output perspectives'. By default they're labelled for surround-sound routing (front1/main, front2/upper, rear1/main, rear2/upper), but you can use them for other purposes if you prefer.

MPiercey wrote: I am able to add reverb to 1 stereo pair as described in the manual, but I would really like to route it to about 1/3 of my speakers (half of which would be duplication of my main speakers in front that receive the main signal, the other half being rear speakers). With the large space my speakers occupy, it is very noticeably fake with the reverb coming from just 1 pair in the front and 1 pair in the back. At first I thought a buss group would work, but I really don't want the reverb moving around, and would prefer it to come continuously from a set group of speakers.


Of the 'front' half of the third of your speakers that you'd want to use for 'front reverb' (i.e. approx. 1/6 of your 80 speakers in total, so let's say 12 speakers as 6 stereo pairs), do you mean you that you'd want them all to be producing exactly identical signals (i.e. for all of your normal multi-channel 'front' speakers also to be mixed down to a stereo mix bus, reverb applied to that stereo mix bus, and then that stereo 'reverb' mix bus being played through all of those 6-ish stereo pairs of speakers simultaneously)?

Or would you want each of those 6-ish stereo pairs of speakers to be receiving different pipes' signals?

There are 8 'intermediate mix' buses which could potentially be used for 8 different stereo reverb mixes (i.e. driving 16 speakers in total). For example, you could use 4 of the intermediate mix buses for your 'front reverbs' and 4 for your 'rear reverbs', and send the desired primary bus to the desired intermediate mix buses.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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MPiercey

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 2:54 pm

Thanks Martin, I probably need instructions for doing it all 3 ways as I don't know which one will sound better. My first instinct is to say the 6-ish speakers will all have the same signal as that is more like what is in a church building (which is probably the easiest). A middle of the road comprimise would have the reverb coming from set speakers in a given division with just that divisions rever in them. On the other hand, existing wet sample sets have their reverb coming from the speakers that the pipe sounds from, so that is really a 3rd option that should be tried.

As all of this is really experimental, it would be nice if the could be set up in different Presets so easy comparisons can be done. I'm pushing it, I know. Sorry about that. All of this routing is very easy to do using Plogue's Bidule, but then I was limited to 16 stereo pairs (VST Limit) for everything. Another possibility is to use HW5 for the speakers routing and Biddle for the reverb(for the 1st two of the above options), but I would prefer to use just HW if possible.

Thanks for your help with this.
Mel
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mdyde

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Re: Mixer Presets and audio routing

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 3:34 pm

Hello Mel,

Actually, would you mind if I left you to experiment with it yourself for a while (and perhaps others here can offer suggestions/advice if needed)? (Explaining in depth how to set up each of the various options up could take some time, and I need to focus on getting v5.0.1 ready, and on helping people with their v5 upgrade questions, at the moment -- sorry!) Thanks.

Briefly, setting up 8 reverb mixes using the intermediate buses would be easy: just select audio device channels for those intermediate mix buses, select reverbs for them, then use the 'Sends ...' settings from your various primary buses to mix audio to the desired ones of the intermediate buses.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

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