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Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

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MichaBerlin

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Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostMon Jan 13, 2020 5:51 pm

It's mysterious but I don't know, what to do.

I let Hauptwerk migrate my 10-channel audio settings because I un-ticked the option "Discard migrated Hauptwerk v4 audio settings and reset audio device settings" when I first launched HW V5. It works fine and I named the 10 AsioChannels of my MOTU Ultralight Mk III in the appearing AudioDevice dialog with Main L, Main R, Stereo 2 L, Stereo 2 R, Stereo 3 L, Stereo 3 R, Stereo 4 L, Stereo 4 R und Stereo 5 L und Stereo 5 R.

These migrated audio outputs appear also in the Audio Mixer (for adding reverb, sorround/3D or multi-channel output) and in the audio mixer (Primary) Bus Groups (for multi channel output). I named them like in the audio device and in the audio mixer (for adding reverb, sorround/3D or multi-channel output) the migrated busses are correct connected with the audio output (device) channel(s). All migrated audio channels worked fine.

I route the divisions of an organ to only one Stereo-Pair, e.g. . = Main, Swell = Stereo 2, Positiv = Stereo 3, Pedal = Stereo 4 and if possible Rear = Stereo 5. It works fine.

Then I loaded St.Anne to exercise with adding a reverberation , went to the AudioMixer (for adding reverb....) choose "Mxr prst 1: *Mstr mix bus 1 *Stereo mix 1 (main/recording)" and selected a reverb with reverb audio output on Stereo 5 (Rear). After hearing and changing some reverbs I cleared all selected Inputs...and discarded any changes, if I was asked.

Now, surprise, the output level of "Mxr prst 1: Prmry bus 0013 'Migrated audio output'channel" = Stereo 4 (Asio 0007 L/0008 R) is about 7 db smaller than before and the other busses 0014 - 0017. But not only in Hauptwerk (normal) where I tried the additional reverb also in config 1 - 3. What has happened? I have controlled all busses, the audio device, the audio output connection... nothing. I restored to the fine migrated HW5 first launch day, nothing. But even when I make a backup or restore, after it Hauptwerk freezes (APPCHRASH in Hauptwerk.exe), so I'm not sure if the backup or restore was really successful... And if I restore, I have to load each organ in each config new, thats very time intensiv...e.g Rotterdam, Caen...

Where could be the problem or the reason that the Level of the bus decreased?
How can I solve this problem? I now have increased the audio output channel level +7 db in the "Audio mixer (for adding reverb....)" but its not the solving of the problem.

Thanks, Mike
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mdyde

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 7:02 am

Hello Mike,

(On the off-chance that you're using Windows 10 and your computer is experiencing memory issues with Hauptwerk v5, I'll also send you a forum P.M. with a temporary work-around that should avoid that.)

MichaBerlin wrote:Now, surprise, the output level of "Mxr prst 1: Prmry bus 0013 'Migrated audio output'channel" = Stereo 4 (Asio 0007 L/0008 R) is about 7 db smaller than before and the other busses 0014 - 0017. But not only in Hauptwerk (normal) where I tried the additional reverb also in config 1 - 3.


Do you mean that after the level change occurred it was also exhibited by each of the four Hauptwerk configurations ('Hauptwerk alt config N' desktop short-cuts), even though you had only changed mixer settings in the primary configuration (main 'Hauptwerk' desktop short-cut)?

If so, then whatever caused the level change must actually have been outside of Hauptwerk (e.g. a settings change within your MOTU's native software, or on the MOTU's hardware itself, or an amplifier level) -- the four Hauptwerk configurations have entirely independent settings (saved in completely different files) -- a setting change in one *cannot* ever affect any of the others [unless you specifically then also used backup/restore to copy the settings from one configuration to the other].

MichaBerlin wrote:I restored to the fine migrated HW5 first launch day, nothing. But even when I make a backup or restore, after it Hauptwerk freezes (APPCHRASH in Hauptwerk.exe), so I'm not sure if the backup or restore was really successful...


Do you mean that Hauptwerk crashed after restoring the backup? If so, did it first display a message indicating that the backup had been restored successfully, and then crash when you clicked OK on that message? (If it showed that message then the backup would have been restored correctly, and it just exits the application immediately when you click OK on it, so a crash there would be harmless anyway (even though of course it shouldn't happen). (One other person reported that Hauptwerk crashed on his PC when clicking that OK button after successfully restoring a backup, but I've been unable to reproduce it so far, and the code for it in Hauptwerk is actually unchanged since v4.)

MichaBerlin wrote:And if I restore, I have to load each organ in each config new, thats very time intensiv...e.g Rotterdam, Caen...


It's normal and expected that organs will be slow to load (i.e. their caches will need to be regenerated) the first time that you load them after restoring any backup. Hence that doesn't indicate a problem.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
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MichaBerlin

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostTue Jan 14, 2020 5:47 pm

Hello Martin,

thanks for your reply...

I'm using Win 7 Professional, SP 1.

mdyde wrote:Do you mean that after the level change occurred it was also exhibited by each of the four Hauptwerk configurations ('Hauptwerk alt config N' desktop short-cuts), even though you had only changed mixer settings in the primary configuration (main 'Hauptwerk' desktop short-cut)?


Yes, I was very suprised and it is unbelieveable because the four configs shall be independant...

mdyde wrote:If so, then whatever caused the level change must actually have been outside of Hauptwerk (e.g. a settings change within your MOTU's native software, or on the MOTU's hardware itself, or an amplifier level) -- the four Hauptwerk configurations have entirely independent settings (saved in completely different files) -- a setting change in one *cannot* ever affect any of the others [unless you specifically then also used backup/restore to copy the settings from one configuration to the other].


Yes, I checked the Motu In- and Output Levels (all 0,00 dB), if there are any Mix-Modi on the Channels = no, I checked the 12 Amps if there are different Levels = no. It is mysterious...

No, I have'nt copied the settings from one to another config with backup/restore.

mdyde wrote:Do you mean that Hauptwerk crashed after restoring the backup? If so, did it first display a message indicating that the backup had been restored successfully, and then crash when you clicked OK on that message?


Yes exatly. On Sunday it also crashed and Hauptwerk freezes after an backup, the massage came that the backup is done etc. and by clicking ok it freezes and crashed.

mdyde wrote:It's normal and expected that organs will be slow to load (i.e. their caches will need to be regenerated) the first time that you load them after restoring any backup. Hence that doesn't indicate a problem.


I knew. But because the 4 configs are independent it would be nice to make independent backups and restores. Ok but its no solution of the problem it makes the circumstances more nice.

Ok, I will check every screw of my audio system outside Hauptwerk. If there is nothing to find, I'll restore the last HW 4 backup and install HW 5 again...

I'll post the result here...

Thanks Martin
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mdyde

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostWed Jan 15, 2020 6:44 am

Thanks, Mike.

MichaBerlin wrote:
mdyde wrote:Do you mean that Hauptwerk crashed after restoring the backup? If so, did it first display a message indicating that the backup had been restored successfully, and then crash when you clicked OK on that message?


Yes exatly. On Sunday it also crashed and Hauptwerk freezes after an backup, the massage came that the backup is done etc. and by clicking ok it freezes and crashed.


Whilst that would have been harmless (since Hauptwerk was simply in the process of exiting immediately anyway), I think I might have identified a case that could conceivably occasionally have resulted in a (harmless) crash in that situation (actually, unchanged since Hauptwerk v3). I've sent you a temporary work-around via forum P.M. (Please switch to using that.)

MichaBerlin wrote:Ok, I will check every screw of my audio system outside Hauptwerk. If there is nothing to find, I'll restore the last HW 4 backup and install HW 5 again...


There should be no need to un-install or re-install Hauptwerk itself; you could simply use 'File | Revert all settings to factory defaults' and/or restore the settings backup. (If the issue persists after using that 'File | Revert all settings to factory defaults ...' function then the issue definitely couldn't have been related to any of your Hauptwerk settings.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
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MichaBerlin

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostWed Jan 15, 2020 7:29 am

Thanks Martin,

mdyde wrote:I've sent you a temporary work-around via forum P.M. (Please switch to using that.)


I've seen it, thanks, I've sent a support-question to MSI if my X99A supports AVX or AVX2... I dont know...
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mdyde

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostWed Jan 15, 2020 7:55 am

Hello Mike,

If you look in Hauptwerk's log ('View | Activity log') after launching Hauptwerk via your existing version, the following entry will show you whether your CPU supports AVX:

INF:4165 Welcome to Hauptwerk
...
Processor build type:
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]
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MichaBerlin

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostWed Jan 15, 2020 6:00 pm

mdyde wrote:INF:4165 Welcome to Hauptwerk
...
Processor build type:


AVX2

Thank you Martin
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mdyde

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Re: Problem: Level of bus changes - 7 db

PostThu Jan 16, 2020 6:00 am

Thanks, Mike.

In that case, the computer can also run AVX (=AVX1) applications.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.

[Please use email or the Contact page if you need to contact us privately, rather than private forum messages.]

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