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Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

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Ozykz

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Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostFri Dec 04, 2020 9:17 pm

I've got an organ set up that has been working flawless prior to upgrading to Hauptwerk VI.

PC Specs:
Ryzen 3600XT
64GB DDR4 3600MHz
Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe PCIe 4 SSD.
MOTU 24ao Audio interface.

Audio is routed via VST to Reaper

48kHz on Hauptwerk VI gives me approximately 11,500 Polyphony (tested via the polyphony testing organ) before audio glitches. My audio buffer size is only 64 samples. The glitching is a fast popping noise and does not stop the organ from playing.

On 96kHz, even at approximately 1000 true polyphony (With 96kHz and high quality pitch shifting turned on), the audio will glitch. It's not constant, it seems to happen every couple minutes.

However, this time it is a popping noise followed by one or a series of loud cracking noises (Almost sounds like resetting or replugging in an audio interface when the power is on). I've tested this with up a 4096 buffer and no change. The CPU meter does not spike red, in fact, I've had glitches at 30% or less CPU usage.

LatencyMon shows no issues. There are no drivers with high utilization. Windows is stripped down to just basic drivers and services. The hauptwerk log doesn't show any problems as it's occurring.

Anyone else have this issue, and are there any ideas as to why I'm getting it?
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mdyde

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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSat Dec 05, 2020 4:34 am

Hello Ozykz,

Hauptwerk (any version) doesn't actually support buffer sizes smaller than 128 frames. If you had your Reaper (and/or MOTU device control panel) buffer size set to 64, then Hauptwerk would still be producing buffers of whatever size was selected on the 'General settings | Audio device' screen in Hauptwerk (minimum 128 frames). Hence even with the Reaper/MOTU buffer size of 64 you would still be getting a latency of at least 128, and Hauptwerk would have to produce the full 128+ frames within the time of a single 64-frame Reaper/MOTU buffer every other Reaper/MOTU buffer request, massively increasingly CPU overheads and making audio glitches much more likely.

Here's the relevant excerpt from the main Hauptwerk user guide (page 263 in the current v6.0.1 version):

For the Hauptwerk AU/VST Plug-in Link, audio buffer sizes should also be specified within Hauptwerk (since Hauptwerk requires its buffers’ sizes to be powers of two and of a constant size, so that zero-latency impulse response reverb is possible within Hauptwerk). For good performance, the individual buffer size set in Hauptwerk should be no larger than the AU/VST host’s buffer size and the total amount of Hauptwerk buffering (Hauptwerk individual buffer size multiplied by number of buffers) should be at least as much as the AU/VST host’s buffer size. If you are certain that the host’s buffer size will always be exactly the same as the buffer size set in Hauptwerk then you can set the number of buffers in Hauptwerk to 1, which should give the best possible performance and lowest latency.


Please try:

- In Reaper's project settings ('File | Project settings') for the project, make sure that 'Project sample rate' is ticked, and the sample rate set to 96 kHz.

- In Reaper's general preferences ('Options | Preferences'), under the 'Audio | Device' node in the left-hand list, check that:
------ Audio system = ASIO
------ ASIO driver = MOTU Pro Audio
------ Request sample rate = ticked, and set to 96000.
------ Request block size = ticked, and set to 1024.

- Open the MOTU contol panel, and check that its device settings are also:
------ Sample rate = 96 kHz
------ Buffer size = 1024
[Some devices, such as MOTU's AVB devices, ignore Hauptwerk/Reaper-requested buffer sizes, and instead use their own control panels' buffer size settings. Hence it's very important that the desired buffer size is also set via their own control panels, especially for MOTU devices.]

- On Hauptwerk's 'General settings | Audio device and channels' scren check that:
------ Audio output device = Hauptwerk VST Link
------ Sample rate = 96 kHz.
------ Audio buffer size = 1024 frames
------ Number of audio buffers = 1

[In summary, make sure that the same buffer size is selected for Hauptwerk, Reaper, and in your MOTU control panel, and that 96 kHz is selected in all three, and that the number of buffers is set to 1 in Hauptwerk.]

That should give reliable performance on most PCs. Assuming so, you could try reducing the buffer size to 512 (in all of: Hauptwerk, Reaper and the MOTU control panel), whilst keeping the other settings (96 kHz, 1 buffer in Hauptwerk) the same.

(I'd advise against using buffer sizes smaller than 256, especially at 96 kHz, since very few PCs will manage that reliably, and you will have much, much less polyphony. A buffer size of 512 corresponds to a latency of only 5.3ms at 96 kHz.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Ozykz

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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSat Dec 05, 2020 1:11 pm

Thanks Martin for your very detailed reply,

In my testing at 96kHz I have tried setting Hauptwerk's buffer at 2048, the same in Reaper, and the same in the MOTU 24ao control panel. I didn't find that it had any effect on the frequency of the occuring glitch.

I can confirm all 3 are set at 96kHz as well.

Reading my first post, I'm not sure if I made it clear. 48kHz has been working flawless at a super low buffer and high polyphony. 96kHz is not working correctly despite high buffer and low polyphony limits.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSat Dec 05, 2020 2:18 pm

Thanks, Ozykz.

Hauptwerk doesn't do anything differently at 96 kHz at all, compared to 48 kHz -- the only difference is the sample rate value itself. 96 kHz inherently stresses everything (including Hauptwerk, Reaper, the audio hardware/driver, other PC hardware/driver components, etc.) more than 48 kHz, due to twice as much data needing to be produced, and within much tighter timing tolerances.

VST/AU also stresses the system considerably more than using direct audio output from Hauptwerk. Unless you specifically need to use VST/AU (e.g. for applying a room acoustic correction software plug-in), then for best performance use Hauptwerk stand-alone (via the MOTU ASIO driver directly), with Hauptwerk's built-in reverb functionality if desired.

Assuming you do really need to use VST/AU:

Did you specifically try setting the number of buffers in Hauptwerk to 1 (with buffer sizes set to 1024 in Reaper, Hauptwerk and the MOTU panel, all with 96 kHz sample rates)? I'd suggest sticking to those exact settings until you have everything working reliably.

Also test with a new 'clean' Reaper project that has no plug-ins loaded within it aside from Hauptwerk.

Also, make sure you aren't nearly filling the PC's RAM -- keep at least several GB showing as 'free' on Hauptwerk's 'Audio, MIDI and Performance' large control panel. Try using just the St. Anne's organ until you have it working reliably (since it's small, and we all have ready access to it).

You could also potentially try launching Hauptwerk from Windows 'as administrator', which allows Hauptwerk to run at higher priorities, increasing resilience to audio glitches on some systems. (However, it might instead work worse, since Reaper would then be getting less CPU time.)

If you then still have the problem, try testing Hauptwerk stand-alone, without Reaper (or any other audio/MIDI software) running, and with Hauptwerk using the MOTU ASIO driver directly, just to make sure that the problem is indeed only occurring specifically via VST/AU/Reaper.

As a sanity check, on my 2.5 GHz quad-core Windows 10 laptop (much less powerful than your PC) I've been running Hauptwerk with St. Anne's loaded, playing the built-in MIDI demo repeatedly and constantly for at least 40 minutes, with audio output via VST to Reaper at 96 kHz using 1x 1024 frames of buffering in Hauptwerk, and I've had no audio glitches at all, so it's working well for me.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSat Dec 05, 2020 2:21 pm

P.S. Also make sure that your Reaper project has the 64-bit Hauptwerk VST plug-in loaded, not the 32-bit one (since Reaper's 32-to-64-bit plug-in adapter might possibly add overheads).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSat Dec 05, 2020 3:47 pm

Hello,

I have exactly the same problem as described above with a 3700x AMD processor.

The fault was resolved when the wind model was shut down.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 5:13 am

Hello Wouter,

The wind model does of course also add to CPU overheads.

Do you mean that you get the same problem via VST even with St. Anne's and when all of Reaper + MOTU + Hauptwerk are set to buffer sizes of 1024 and 96 kHz, with the number of buffers set to 1 in Hauptwerk, and with no other plug-ins loaded in Reaper?

How about (with St. Anne's at 96 kHz and a buffer size of 1x 1024) if you don't use VST/Reaper, and instead output via ASIO directly from Hauptwerk?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 6:48 am

Hello Martin,

I have not tested it in St. Anne's. I have tested it with various other sample sets including Rotterdam, Billerbeck and Schiedam. Polyphony at 1000 and audio buffer at 1024/1, 96 KHZ and high quality pitch shifting enabled. Same problem without Reaper. No problems with the wind model turned off and a polyphony of 7000. So it seems that it has to do with the wind model

Regards,
Wouter
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 7:17 am

Thanks, Wouter.

There are absolutely no changes at all in Hauptwerk's wind model between v5 and v6. Having either of the two new v6 high-performance options enabled (96 kHz, and/or high-definition pitch-shifting) will add a lot of CPU overheads, and might thus (if the system is heavily stressed) indirectly make the wind model be processed less smoothly (giving somewhat more or less 'wind wobble'), and of course the wind model itself adds CPU overheads.

Please try running Hauptwerk stand-alone (ASIO output, 1x 1024 buffer size, 96 kHz, no other audio/MIDI software running), loading St. Anne's, and see whether you still have the problem. If so, specifically what happens when the problem occurs? E.g. do you mean that you get an 'audio glitch' (i.e. the audio completely breaks up briefly, and the 'CPU' meter on Hauptwerk's 'Audio, MIDI and Performance' large control panel goes briefly into the red)?

If so, please also try leaving LatencyMon ( https://resplendence.com/latencymon ) running when the problem occurs, and see whether it reports any problems with the system for real-time audio.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 8:39 am

Thanks Martin.

No problems with St. Anne, but with different sample sets. Also standalone, so without Reaper. The CPU will not turn red, but the audio will stop popping and crackling. Audiometer in Hauptwerk then suddenly turns red, even at low volume.

Regards,
Wouter
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 9:16 am

Thanks, Wouter.

Can you reproduce the problem under the same circumstances (stand-alone, ASIO, 96kHz, 1x1024) with any MDA sample sets? (Francois and myself have ready access to those if needed.)

If so, in the same circumstances (stand-alone, ASIO, 96kHz, 1x1024) and with the same sample set, if you change Hauptwerk's sample rate setting to 48 kHz (but change no other settings), does that definitely eliminate the problem?

Also, if you use Hauptwerk's built-in audio recorder, do the pops/crackles you mention get recorded into the audio files?
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 10:18 am

Thanks Martin.

Unfortunately I don't have any MDA sets. The crackling / stopping audio is also displayed in the recorded file. (96 kHz and / or high pitching setting, 1024/1 buffer)

Regards,
Wouter
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 10:21 am

With 48KHZ and Pitch shifting switched off, there is no problem.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 1:16 pm

Thanks, Wouter.

Coincidentally, somebody else reported to us today that with a couple of sample sets the sonic effects imparted on the pipework by wind fluctuations were more noticeable at 96 kHz than at 48 kHz. I've been looking into that this afternoon.

---------------------------------------
Bug description corrected 2020-12-07:

It turns out that there is a bug in Hauptwerk v6.0.0/6.0.1 in that the harmonic-shaping ('brightness') filters used by the wind model (and tremulants, and 'brightness' adjustments via the voicing screen and organ definition) were not being recalculated if, with an organ loaded, you then changed the sample rate without re-loading the organ, potentially resulting in some frequencies being emphasized a bit more more or less strongly when those filters are used prominently (and perhaps giving strange sounds, especially for very low or very high notes). (The filters will, however, be correct after loading any organ.) My apologies for that bug, which will be fixed for the next Hauptwerk v6 patch.

The work-around, if you have an organ loaded and wish to change the sample rate, is simply to ensure that you then re-load the organ.

(I will also improve the response of the harmonic-shaping filters for the the lowest notes on a 32' rank when used at 96 kHz.)

---------------------------------------

If you're getting audio break-ups as a result of that then it could only be due to signal 'clipping', i.e. due to the audio output signal now being too loud due to some of frequencies being emphasized more strongly. Re-loading the organ after changing the sample rate (as above) should avoid that.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Re: Hauptwerk VI, 96kHz - Very loud popping/cracking noises.

PostSun Dec 06, 2020 1:35 pm

Hallo Martin,

does this also apply to high-quality pitch shifting enabled and 48 KHZ?
Last edited by wouter1985 on Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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