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SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

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vpo-organist

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SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostTue Dec 08, 2020 5:39 pm

Hello,

I am testing a register recognition of a friend's organ. The stop sends a SysEx message:
F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 7D F7

I send this string to HW VI via a midi tool, but the auto-detect does not recognize the message. Why?
If I check this with Midi-OX the sequence is sent correctly.

If I send e.g. F0 01 F7, then Hauptwerk recognizes it.
Does Hauptwerk not support this message length (44 bytes)?
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mnailor

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostTue Dec 08, 2020 7:22 pm

The MIDI Implementation chapter of the user guide says autodetecting switches is limited to sys-ex messages up to 8 bytes.
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johnstump_organist

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostTue Dec 08, 2020 8:25 pm

You might want to look into the program "organ Assist" organassist.com. It stands between the console and HW. You have to spend sometime getting it setup, but I found it fairly easy. Depending on the make and model, it might already have screen of the stop setup for your particular case. Otherwise, it is fairly easy to create one.
It will translate SYs-ex messages into something HW will recognize.
I experimented with it on a Rodgers and it did translate the stops so that HW would recognize them.
It failed on the couplers since this particular generation of Rodgers had couplers that sent no MIDI message.
I ended up using Launchpads.
John
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mdyde

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostWed Dec 09, 2020 4:37 am

Hello vpo-organist,

To confirm others' replies: the 'MIDI implementation: Switches ...' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide (pages 279-280 in the current v6.0.1 version) lists the MIDI implementations that Hauptwerk supports for switches. As listed there, Hauptwerk has dedicated support for some digital organ manufacturers' stop/piston sys-ex implementations (e.g. some digital organs use long 'bit-field' messages for the combination of stops that are currently turned on by the digital organ), but if your friend's organ doesn't use one of those particular implementations then the only sys-ex MIDI implementation available in Hauptwerk is this one:

- Generic MIDI sys-ex constant messages (up to eight bytes in length).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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vpo-organist

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostWed Dec 09, 2020 7:01 am

Hello All, many thanks for your replies.

@Martin: The organ is a Roland C330.
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mdyde

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostWed Dec 09, 2020 7:15 am

Thanks, vpo-organist.

Hauptwerk doesn't have dedicated support for the Roland C-330's MIDI implementation, I'm afraid. Searching the forum for 'C330' finds a few topics, in case any of those have any useful tips from other C-330 owners.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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vpo-organist

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostThu Dec 10, 2020 2:30 pm

I've send two Midi-Messages, one Seq for Stop on and one Seq for Stop Off - it works!

Stop On:
F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7D F7

Stop Off:
F0 41 10 30 12 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 7B F7

This was a tip from another Midi-freak ;-)
I don't know if the C330 send the second message, but theoretical it works.

Regards

Edit:
The C330 send 7F and 7D as Checksum-Byte. I simulate it with my Midi-Panel - it works too.
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organassist

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostFri Dec 11, 2020 4:30 am

You are correct that this will work for a single stop but, unfortunately, it will not work when multiple stops are on.

The message the organ is sending or receiving includes the status of ALL stops and so cannot be viewed in isolation. Your individual stop is shown as the 02 value in position 12. However, other stops that are on would change the values at different positions in the MIDI message. Obviously, there are an almost indefinite possibilities of what the single MIDI message will contain. In this situation you cannot depend on matching a fixed message.

The only way to record or playback on the C330 is to analyse or create MIDI messages that reflect the complete registration you require. OrganAssist does this on the fly during recording / playback and is capable of translating these in real time into messages that Hauptwerk will recognise. You could try this out and contact me via my website if you have any questions. If you find it does not work with the 330, I am happy to update OrganAssist as required.

David
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mdyde

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostFri Dec 11, 2020 5:11 am

Hello vpo-organist,

To add to David's reply, that appears to be a 'pre-Infinity-series' Rodgers stop-state bit-field MIDI implementation. One of the MIDI implementations that Hauptwerk natively support is 'Stop: Rodgers pre-Infinity bitfield', so you might find that it's actually directly compatible with Hauptwerk (v4+). To verify:

- On the 'General settings | General preferences' screen in Hauptwerk make sure that the console type setting is set to the 'Rodgers' option,

- Make sure that you have the MIDI port that connects from the Rodgers 'MIDI Seq OUT' MIDI port enabled on Hauptwerk's 'General settings | MIDI ports | MIDI IN ports' screen tab.

- Likewise, make sure that you have the MIDI port that connects to the Rodgers 'MIDI Seq IN' MIDI port enabled on Hauptwerk's 'General settings | MIDI ports | MIDI OUT ports' screen tab.

- Load St. Anne's.

- Being careful not to touch anything else, auto-detect one of its virtual stops to one of the Rodgers MIDI stops, making sure that you turn the MIDI stop on, and then off again, during auto-detection. Also, make the sure that the option on the auto-detection screen to enable MIDI output is ticked (if available).

- Do likewise for another stop.

- See whether the two virtual stops now remain in sync. bi-directionally with their corresponding Rodgers stops.

(You could also right-click on the relevant virtual stops, and check whether they had been auto-detected as using the 'Stop: Rodgers pre-Infinity bitfield'' implementation.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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vpo-organist

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostFri Dec 11, 2020 10:57 am

@David, Martin: Thank you for your explanations. I'm beginning to understand how complicated some manufacturers have implemented the midi handling. I will pass the info to the C330 owner.
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mdyde

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostFri Dec 11, 2020 11:00 am

Thanks, vpo-organist. Hope your friend manages to get it working one way or another.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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vpo-organist

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Re: SysEx-Message don't work with auto-detect

PostFri Dec 11, 2020 6:13 pm

He will try the C-330 with the HW Test version.

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