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Repeating notes gives differing volume levels

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NeilCraig

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Repeating notes gives differing volume levels

PostMon Oct 18, 2004 4:41 pm

Hi All

Was playing around tonight with the Silver Octopus Romantic Organ 1 and had reversed the Gt and Pedal MIDI channels. I was trying to isolate why there is a very loud release on several pedal notes - i.e. are the pedal reed switches giving a contact during the pedal release.

MIDI-OX says no, there are no repeat contacts and I get the same effect if I play the pedal bass on the manual keys [this is not limited only to HWRO1 by the way] and THEN I noticed something really weird:

If I strike the same key over and over e.g. at crotchet/quarter-note rate at Andante, the pipe volume is not the same each time - it becomes successively softer and then louder again with each instance of speaking.

Does anyone else experience this? Try it on St Anne's on Open No 1 on Bb 1 for instance but any stop would do.

I repeat: MIDI-OX doesn't tell me anything is wrong [I can copy sample output if required in case I missed something] but this has got me stumped.

My Johannus midi is merged through a MIDIBoutique HWce so I have expression but none of the key contacts is wired through this.

I'd quite like to eliminate other problems before I start wiring up HWce since I'm going to replace the keyboards/build a new console soon anyway

Hoping someone can give me a clue on this...

Best wishes//Neil
A plaque is simply not necessary - everyone will know it is a Willis organ! - "Father" Henry Willis
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mdyde

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PostTue Oct 19, 2004 5:03 am

See enhancement 56 on the enhancements page:

http://www.hauptwerk.co.uk/enhancements.html

Phase-cancellation can occur during the cross-fade to the release sample, giving the appearance of a 'second attack'. As far as I know, the problem is the same for all samplers that support release samples. However, it is fixed for the forthcoming Hauptwerk v2 where the phase is automatically analysed and aligned.

I think that is the problem you are describing?

Martin.
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NeilCraig

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PostTue Oct 19, 2004 5:19 am

mdyde wrote:See enhancement 56 on the enhancements page:

http://www.hauptwerk.co.uk/enhancements.html

Phase-cancellation can occur during the cross-fade to the release sample, giving the appearance of a 'second attack'. As far as I know, the problem is the same for all samplers that support release samples. However, it is fixed for the forthcoming Hauptwerk v2 where the phase is automatically analysed and aligned.

I think that is the problem you are describing?

Martin.


Hi Martin. I knew about this, but it is so pronounced on a couple of physical pedals - indeed one particular note on the original Johannus Sub-bass seems to be affected, that I was suspecting hardware. In MIDI-OX all the velocities are 100 for "on" and 0 for "off" with no exceptions.

Half of the "problem" is the volume when the notes are repeated - it is the attack and steady-state which are affected, almost like one is turning a volume control up and down. Any ideas?
A plaque is simply not necessary - everyone will know it is a Willis organ! - "Father" Henry Willis
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mdyde

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PostTue Oct 19, 2004 6:24 am

Could it just be that some phase cancellation is happening between the release/reverb of the pipe and the attack if it is played again before the reverb has fully died away?

Martin.
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NeilCraig

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PostTue Oct 19, 2004 7:43 am

mdyde wrote:Could it just be that some phase cancellation is happening between the release/reverb of the pipe and the attack if it is played again before the reverb has fully died away?

Martin.


I'll try that, but the samples are the HWRO1 which are totally dry - the reverb is powered by Lexicon...

Also the sound doesn't get any louder regardless of how long the key is then held down. It's very odd.
A plaque is simply not necessary - everyone will know it is a Willis organ! - "Father" Henry Willis
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NeilCraig

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PostTue Oct 19, 2004 5:34 pm

Martin:

I found the source of the changing volumes - my Lexicon reverb unit is panning the sound and changing the ?phase gradually! Unfortunately, the only setting which sounds like a real church is the one with the most phase jiggery-pokery! It sounds good when playing but holding/repeating single notes sounds almost like a Leslie cabinet.

The release bumps *are* because of the cross-fade issue but they're accentuated by the reverb unit - one area where dry samples played in a wet environment loses out to wet samples in a dry environment, I expect.

I sorted this by moving the release on the worst affected pipes to about 3/4 of the way through the natural decay [no reverb] and the problem is cured, almost. In ensemble I doubt that I would notice it but it can't really be done for the reeds. I tried moving the release to the nearest zero crossing but I didn't notice any improvement until I moved it radically through the release portion.

Regarding the HW2 enhancements, does this mean that the problem is 100% fixed and would it still be fixed in the case of a noticeably uneven loop?

Best wishes//Neil
A plaque is simply not necessary - everyone will know it is a Willis organ! - "Father" Henry Willis
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mdyde

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PostWed Oct 20, 2004 4:39 am

Whether it is 100% fixed depends on the sample. For about 95% of samples it works perfectly but for the remainder, where perfect phase alignment is impossible, it almost always reduces cancellation to a very small amount, and I would recommend discarding and replacing those samples anyway.

Full details of the algorithm will be availble in the v2 sample set creator's guide.

Martin.

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