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Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

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Jan Loosman

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 3:59 am

Hello Thomas
I see your point. But I want to hear the organ acoustics above my organ console and I think there will be enough height left above the recording position to give a added vertical impression off the space.
Now you mention it, isn’t it strange that the Hauptwerk organs we all experience, including the acoustics are all recorded at a position in the church we will never ever sit, some meters above the ground. But I do understand that this will give the best recordings.

Regards Jan
Last edited by Jan Loosman on Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jan Loosman

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 4:15 am

münsterorganist wrote:Dear HW User,
it would be more important to me not to keep inflanting the recordings, the sets then become too expensive, but to invest more in an authentic reproduction. If I can no longer hear the difference between a CD recording of the organ and the sample, I would be happier than working with any perspectives in a living room. A excellent wet sample is enough for this.You can still use the excellent perspective mixer to distribute the works( HW,RP,BW..) on the room. That would be my approch.


I can see your point and I agree that sampleset producers should always offer different versions of the sets to suit everyone’s needs. They already do that with dry, stereo and multichannel, they also add multiple perspectives with already three front channels (not my cup off thea) So they already make multiple recordings and this way push us to expand and improve our hardware already. Why not add a version with vertical channels for those who seek the optimum configuration.

Regards Jan
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Atn52

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 1:55 pm

I have to disagree with the above statement. SACD contain the treble components over 2 stereo channels. The playback must be played through a Blueray player and is fantastic.
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tf11972

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostSat Aug 01, 2020 6:28 pm

Best regards
Thomas

www.forestpipes.de
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostMon Aug 03, 2020 12:15 pm

One thing I didn't mention earlier is I've either posted or have been parts of past posts here concerning the idea of vertical stacking of your front speakers. Rank routing is another biggie. These two alone can make quite a difference and add the vertical height to the sound. As mentioned here by a few others, there comes a point when adding even more channels perhaps pays off less and less, but as mentioned only adds to the sample set production time, overall complexity, and inevitably the requirement of even more powerful computers which in the long run means additional costs. If I were a sample set producer I wouldn't do all these extras that requires added time for free either. Being we have several channels / perspectives already available with many of the new sets and it seems more coming with every new sample set release, this along with a plethora of routing options and now even convolution reverb, a well laid out, routed and placed speaker system might be all you need.

I look at it this way: We're either asking the sample set producers to do all the additional work for us and determine what is best, or we do some of it ourselves. Concerning the various recording perspectives and the resulting acoustics they come up, to me it would then mean in order for things to sound best we are then subject to certain requirements for the number of channels we'd need which would likely require that we also follow a strict speaker layout provided by them. This may work great for their sample sets, but maybe not so great for others not following the same process. Honestly, I'm already seeing / hearing some of this between sets. I more like the idea that I have a sample set that offers a quality recording process of 2 to 6 perspectives, and I do my homework from there using careful speaker placement and the many tools Hauptwerk offers. Bottom line, none of us are ever going to re-create a perfect sound experience that sounds exactly like it does in the church, and from one setup to the next it's going to sound different because we're all using different equipment, are in different rooms, etc., etc. It's all about how it sounds to you. :)

Marc

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kasterling

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostThu Aug 06, 2020 12:42 am

josq wrote:
You are right to mention the vertical dimension of the reverb: sound reflecting from the high walls/roof. Good to hear that you are able to achieve satisfying results using multiple speakers and convolution reverb. I guess the reverb/delay needs to be optimized per organ?


Ideally, yes, reverb/delay does need to be optimized for each organ, which can get complicated. Here HW5 would certainly offer an advantage insofar as all the reverb and delay settings for each mixer bus can be customized and saved for each organ--which Martin kindly clarified earlier in this thread. However, I have achieved spectacular results with HW4 and outboard reverb modules (my favorites made by TC Electronics).

I really don't think that any sample set needs more than 6 channels. In fact, even very minimalist organs in absolutely dead spaces like the MDA Buzard chamber organ (2 channels, 16 bit samples, NO natural reverb) can be brought beautifully to life. Extra "channels" can be gleaned from any sample set by routing the signals through a preamp or mixer that has multiple outputs. Some of these outputs can carry the direct dry pipe sound to an amp and speakers, and some of them can go to an outboard reverb and then to another amp and speakers.

I have found it absolutely key to separate the dry sound from the reverberations through separate speaker banks. The principle behind this is no different from that behind surround channels. You don't want the reflected sounds from the rear of the church coming through the front speakers along with the sounds recorded close to the pipes. In essence, reverberation can be introduced to create a synthesized surround with great depth. Again, its use has to be tailored to the acoustics already present in the sample set. With a set like Salisbury, the introduction of additional reverb would be overkill, to say the least. But with a rather dry set like the Portland Rosales, additional reverb can create a wholly different organ.

It helps to have speakers both on the floor and mounted up on the walls, and also to have them in different rooms if possible. The use of multiple speaker selector switches then allows sound channels to be routed here or there at will, and L-pads set the levels. Having all of this external to the organ console and not tying up the screen or computer allows me to custom tailor the organ while the player of the day goes about his business of rehearsing pieces and choosing registrations. Of course, the switch and L-pad settings do have to be carefully written down, but usually just once for each individual instrument.

If it's a vertical dimension you're after, mount speakers in the top of your stairwell and direct them away from listeners. With reverb sent to a different location, you can even create quite the realistic impression of a carillon or tower bells ringing over top the house!
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1961TC4ME

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Re: Why no vertical channels in samplesets?

PostTue Aug 11, 2020 11:21 am

I'm on the Emotiva email list and received this today. Note that they specifically mention height. Worth a look?

https://emotiva.com/products/airmotiv-v ... VlZSIn0%3D

Marc
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