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Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

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Frank_VTPO

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Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 6:08 am

Dear friends of the theatre organ,

I use the sample set P450 (Paramount Organ Works) running on a console with lit thumb pistons under each manual. When I assign these real thumb pistons to those on the screen they get lit only for a very short moment while pressing them, but otherwise their light stay off. What I would like to achieve is that the lamp in these pistons behaves like those on the screen. Did I overlook an option how to correctly auto-detect and assign my pistons? Did anyone manage to set them in a way that they duplicate the behaviour on the monitor screen?

I have also attempted to use the Hauptwerk built-in Generals. They stay on and switch off as expected. However, the general and divisional pistons of the P450 sample set are programmed differently: For example, you can select General no. 3 and add a single stop. The light of the Hauptwerk general piston no. 3 turns off, because you changed the registration. In the P450 sample set, however, the light of the General piston stays on (presumably becauase you normally do only small changes with the stop tabs).

I would like to replicate the behaviour of the P450 thumb pistons shown on screen with my hardware pistons. Are there any ideas how to achieve this? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Kind regards,
Frank
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mdyde

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 7:00 am

Frank_VTPO wrote: have also attempted to use the Hauptwerk built-in Generals. They stay on and switch off as expected. However, the general and divisional pistons of the P450 sample set are programmed differently: For example, you can select General no. 3 and add a single stop. The light of the Hauptwerk general piston no. 3 turns off, because you changed the registration.


Just to confirm: that's the correct and intended behaviour for Hauptwerk's master generals in Hauptwerk v4/v5 (although we do have an enhancement request logged for allowing them optionally to remain lit if the registration has since changed).
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Frank_VTPO

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 7:31 am

Thank you, Martin,
I probably did not make this point clear.
In a classical organ the indicator light for Generals and Divisionals should go off as soon the organist changes anything (even, if it is just one stop). I assume the Paramount organ to behave differently, because theatre organists usually work a lot with combinations and just apply minor changes by hand registration. As long as the light stays on, you still see what you have (at least approximately). You can also set General no. 3 and Solo (a Divisional piston) no. 5 and both will light up.
So the question remain: How can I get this behaviour to my pistons on the console?

Best regards,
Frank
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mdyde

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 7:55 am

Hello Frank,

Frank_VTPO wrote:I use the sample set P450 (Paramount Organ Works) running on a console with lit thumb pistons under each manual. When I assign these real thumb pistons to those on the screen they get lit only for a very short moment while pressing them, but otherwise their light stay off. What I would like to achieve is that the lamp in these pistons behaves like those on the screen. Did I overlook an option how to correctly auto-detect and assign my pistons?


I don't know how the Paramount's virtual pistons are intended to behave with respect to sending MIDI (you would probably need to contact Paramount Organ Works if you needed a definitive answer), or how they're implemented internally, but I would imagine that they would send on/off states according to their on-screen 'lit' states. You could check by turning on the 'Diagnostics: log all MIDI messages received and sent' option temporarily on the 'General settings | General preferences | Advanced ...' screen tab. Then use 'View | Activity log' to see what MIDI messages they send as you make the virtual pistons light up and un-light by clicking on them via the virtual console screen.
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mdyde

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 8:12 am

P.S. Here's a previous topic on the subject of whether the Paramounts' virtual pistons send 'latching' MIDI states for their light statuses:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18685&p=140782#p140782

(Presumably they don't.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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Frank_VTPO

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 12:38 pm

Thank you for the tip to create a log file.
I can recognize that clicking the piston on screen creates either a MIDI NOTE ON or a MIDI NOTE OFF signal, but nothing in addition.
Using the 2nd output option for the set-up menu of a piston I can only get it lighted as long as I press this piston, but not for any longer. Does this mean that the Paramount sample set does not generate the required MIDI signal for what I intend to do?
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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostMon Sep 14, 2020 1:43 pm

Hello Frank,

I've briefly checked, and indeed it appears that the Paramount 450 doesn't have the ability natively to send MIDI output from its virtual general pistons according to their lit states. Hence if you want that behaviour that's something you'd need to request from the Paramount's makers.

(As I mentioned we do have an enhancement request logged for adding an option so that Hauptwerk's master generals could remain lit even after the registration has changed.)
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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damuehlbauer

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 2:24 pm

I am assuming your combination pistons behave similar to a Launchpad. I discovered early in the process that I had to use Hauptwerk combinations and not Paramount's. I use HW Master Generals, and then Scoped Registration for Divisionals. These work correctly and stay illuminated unless you change the setting in some way.

I have the Paramount 341, and it works fine with this process.
David Muehlbauer
Mesa, Arizona USA
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Frank_VTPO

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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Thank you - I think the last answer bears a precious hint!
I have managed to assign the Hauptwerk General pistons (1-20) and they work as they should.
Then I have tried to fiddle out how to include the Divisional pistons (15 per manual) by using the HW Divisionals, but it was unclear for me what to do. Obviously I must use the HW Scoped pistons instead.
And yes, I can confirm that the lights on the Novation LaunchPad mk2 behave like illuminated pistons regarding the lit on/off state. The best you can achieve when you assign them to the Paramount pistons is that they light up as long as you press them. In contrast, stop tongues switch the light on and off as expected.
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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostTue Sep 15, 2020 3:42 pm

I can't really claim credit for this -- I got the information a few years ago from someone else on this forum.

One other hint - when I scoped the Great manual, I included the Tremulants. That way, Great settings include an appropriate tremulant.
David Muehlbauer
Mesa, Arizona USA
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Re: Paramount P450 - General and Divisional Pistons

PostFri Sep 18, 2020 10:22 am

Thank you for the precious tips!
Today I have assigned the 15 Divisional pistons (1-10 plus pp-ff) of four manuals (60 in total) to the HW scoped pistons. One certainly has to know what one is doing here, but the manual is very clear about this procedure, so I got it to work.
Still the pedal division has got five another pistons left. And, if understand correctly, I have used all available HW scope pistons. So, obviously I have the choice to
- either leave the lamps of the pedal pistons dark (as they are currently controlled by the P450), or
- to free five of the scoped pistons used in the manual divisions and to assign them to the pedal, instead.
Then, however, I would use five of the HW reversible pistons one manual (maybe the Solo).
I will try out what the best is - I am inclined towards reversibles on the Solo.
Best regards,
Frank

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