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A new mystery organ to guess

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...

A new mystery organ to guess

Postby Hoofdwerk » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:56 am

It's time to play the third round of "What organ is this?"

You guessed St. Michel based on a rare Montre 4 on the Positif, and it was impressive. :)

Then you guessed Krzeszow, a relatively unknown organ, without any stop names, and after I had tried to misdirect you at first that it was a little Italian-style organ, based on hearing two 32' stops and using a doctoral thesis to narrow down the organs that it could be. That was VERY impressive. :D

Well, can you find this organ? It will not be easy. But it is on the web. I have even seen a few videos of it being played.

Since the last time we did this it caused a few problems over on CCH, this time I'm trying something a bit different. The mystery organ demos are on another server where we won't run the risk of clogging the CCH dashboard or frustrating anyone who doesn't like unidentified sample sets in the normal CCH postings. Follow the links in this post to the first round of demos. I will either edit this post or add another post with more pieces as I can record them.

Have fun!
Erik

First demo set:
http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Tunder-Canzona.mp3
http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Scheidt-DaJesusandemKreuzestund.mp3
http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Scheidemann-Erbarmdichmein.mp3
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Re: A new mystery organ to guess

Postby _Pieter_ » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:01 am

My guess would be the 3 manual Marcussen transept organ of the Laurenskerk in Rotterdam.
The doubt I have is that it seems to me that a 16' labial is used on the manuals while the transept organ doesn't have any (except on the pedal division). But maybe that is one of Erik's tricks :)
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Re: A new mystery organ to guess

Postby sesquialtera » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:26 am

But it is on the web. I have even seen a few videos of it being played.


Can you give us the links, please ? :lol:
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Re: A new mystery organ to guess

Postby Franz64 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:21 am

Maybe the 1624 Scherer organ in St.Stephan, Tangermuende?
Ideal for the repertoire,... and since a long time in my wishlist!

Regards,

Francesco
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Re: A new mystery organ to guess

Postby Mike 353 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:07 am

I have no idea what organ it is, but it surely is a nice-sounding organ. and definitely one that would be a worthy addition to the list of Hauptwerk instruments
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Re: A new mystery organ to guess

Postby Fazioli » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:07 am

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Re: A new mystery organ to guess

Postby Opus138 » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:16 am


    For me, it is no longer a guess, it IS the "transeptorgan" of the Laurenskerk in Rotterdam.

    Simon Heijkoop
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby Hoofdwerk » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:33 am

    You ask for the links? Perhaps later... :wink: but for now I will just give the hint that the links include "www" and lead to videos that have a very nice-looking organ in them.

    Here are a few more files for you to use in your investigations:

    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Scheidemann-BallettinF.mp3
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Scheidemann-Ballettind.mp3
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Geist-GelobetSeistDu.mp3
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/Geist-Austiefernot.mp3

    Your initial guesses are not bad. I think the room at Rotterdam is much bigger baesd on the reverb tails?

    Erik
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby adrianw » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

    Still not much to go on... It certainly sounds modern to me - late 20th century (post "neo baroque") - and with (even from the few samples so far) a wide range of tone colour. Very pretty flutes. Nice open principals. Solo stopss suggesting a 3 manual. And a distinctive raspy pedal reed.

    Perhaps I'm over influenced by previous posts suggesting Marcussen, but of those I've heard it certainly put me in mind of the Tonbridge School Chapel (Kent, England) 4 manual Marcussen, which fits tonally and also has the right sort of acoustic. I doubt one would bother to travel to England to sample a Danish instrument, but no doubt there are similar installations elsewhere in mainland Europe.

    - Adrian.
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby adri » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:08 pm

    Don't know what happened to my earlier posts:

    1. not Tangermunde

    2. Marcussen? Perhaps; but not the Laurenskerk transept organ. Reverb tails seem to short. R'dam is a very large church.

    3. the organ has no tracker noises; modern temperament, steady winding: probably neo-baroque indeed. Funny regal reed at one pint.

    It is perhaps the Marcussen in the Nicolai kerk of Utrecht. Shorter acoustics than Rotterdam. It is visually a very nice looking organ (for its time).

    But: The Utrecht organ has no Bourdon 16' in the pedal, but a Principal 16. The trumpet 8' of the Hoofdwerk is en chamade. So, not totally sure.

    Bottom line: need to hear more samples.
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby Hoofdwerk » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:30 pm

    I will post more samples as soon as I can. I can tell you that you have heard almost the entire organ already.

    Adri is showing his good ears again. All of his qualitative observations in the previous post are correct (but - was that a regal, or possibly a combination?), but I make no comment on whether or not this is a Marcusson organ. :|

    Part of this challenge is that the new organ is not as distinctive as, say, Krzeszow. I will try to post a few short selections that show the most distinctive features of this particular organ next. Otherwise, you have a large set of potential organs to work through, even with Adri's observations as guide.

    For this organ, it will take a bit of careful listening to what you hear, as well as thinking about what you do not hear (as Adri has done a bit already) to get the answer.

    Erik
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby adri » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:33 pm

    More careful listening

    The organ has at least the following stops:

    Hauptwerk: Quintadena 16, Principal 8, Flute 8, Octave 4, Flute 4, Octave 2, Flute 2, Quint 3, Mixture, Trompet 8

    2nd Manual, Probably a Rugwerk: Prestant 4, Gedakt 8, Flute 4, Sesquialtera, Dulzian 8

    Pedal: Bourdon 16, Principal 8, Fagot 16, Reed 8 or 4.

    Tremulant

    If the organ has a 3rd brustwerk, it may have the 2' flute, gedakt 8, Holzregal 8' , and some kind of filler like a Nassat 1-1/2.

    I need just a little more to be able to draw a far more accurate specification, and I may have made mistakes already.

    It's not the Marcussen organs mentioned so far.

    It's probably around 25 stops total.
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby adrianw » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:09 am

    If we've heard almost all of it, it is certainly a smaller instrument than I was thinking.

    However, some of these samples would have needed lightning registration changes on a 2 manual, and I don't hear any stop noises there, so I'm still thinking a small 3 manual.

    Are there some clues from any of the chosen repertoire -Tunder (Lubeck), Scheidt (Halle), Scheidemann (Hamburg) - perhaps?

    - Adrian.
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby Hoofdwerk » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:32 pm

    First, so that you are not mislead, know that the Scheidt and the Scheidemann "Erbarm Dich" verses are pasted together with Audacity, so there are indeed registration changes that you do not hear since I recorded each movement by itself. However, all the changes could be accomplished at the organ with the aid of an assistant or two.

    Between the movements of "Erbarm Dich", for example, the pedal loses three stops, and the OW also loses three stops. While the OW introduction is playing, the HW plenum is replaced by the solo combination you hear, and there is plenty of time to do that. I just didn't have that many hands available...

    You say it is smaller than you were thinking, but I will say in reply your guess of 25 stops is quite close to the real total. There are indeed a few mistakes in your proposed stop list, but there is much that is correct as well. I still make no comment on how many manuals the organ has.

    But perhaps one of these demos will help.

    A verset by Carson Cooman written for this organ. It is all of 36 hours old... There are no registratoin changes in this piece. If you can figure this out, it may go some distance to eliminating many organs with similar size and specifications.
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/coomanverseti.mp3

    In this next demo, the second half of the chorale features the soprano cantus firmus played on the pedal rather than in the manuals as notated. You can hear the tremulant acting on the three lower parts only.
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/pachelbelanwasserflussen.mp3

    Compare the manual registraton of this chorale with the second half of the Scheidemann Ballett "in F"
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/pachelbelvomhimmel.mp3

    Finally, a comparison of the two plena of the organ. The only reed stop you will hear is the final pedal note
    http://clavmon.ics.cas.cz/ErikMP3/scheidemannpraeambulumd.mp3

    Don't read too much intp the locations of the composers, beyond this being a North German sort of organ where this repertoire works very well (and things I can play with little preparation). But do listen to Carson's piece carefully for many clues,

    Erik
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    Re: A new mystery organ to guess

    Postby adrianw » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:50 pm

    Its hard to hear missing notes (!), but I think that the clues in Carson's piece must be the missing notes, suggesting (at least) CDE short octaves in manuals as well as pedals.

    If it is, I think we're looking for a modern rebuild of an historic instrument, such as the Sct. Mariae kirke Helsingør. That has CDE short octave on manual 1 and CDEFGA short octaves on II and III. (I'm not sure that it even has a tremulant, though).

    - Adrian.
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