Three to two manuals

I have a Roland C-330 two manuals and I use to play with the sample from OAM 1761-2005 Johann-Andreas Silbermann/Metzler Organ, Arlesheim, this organ has three manuals, (Hauptwerk, Positif and Recit) but does not have a coupler for the third manual, so I can not use the stops for this manual with the other two.
My question is ( I could not find this in the HW manual) can I make a coupler via software (HW) for this stops and use them with the Hauptwerk or the Positive manuals, Thank you.

Use floating manuals. There are numerous threads on that matter.

Rgds, Jack

[mdyde]

Hello atugores,

To add to Jack's reply:

You can certainly use a sample set that has more virtual manuals than you have physical MIDI manuals. In general, you can either:

- Simply ignore the 4th virtual manual. Or:

- Connect (auto-detect) two virtual keyboards to a single physical MIDI keyboard, so that the MIDI keyboard always played both virtual keyboards simultaneously, effectively behaving like a single virtual division, but with the additional stops on it. Or:

- Play it via couplers (the couplers included natively within the sample set, where applicable, and/or Hauptwerk's master couplers on the 'View | Large control panels | Master couplers' screen). Or:

- Use Hauptwerk's floating divisions to allow you to flip the assignments of one or more physical MIDI keyboards around amongst multiple virtual keyboards as you play, changing the assignments using MIDI pistons/buttons. The 'Registration menu: floating divisions' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide covers that (pages 110-117 in the current v4.2.1 version).

Here are some relevant previous topics:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14765
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13990
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8909
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15608

Thanks to all of you, thats help a lot and I will try everything, thank you

- Use Hauptwerk's floating divisions to allow you to flip the assignments of one or more physical MIDI keyboards around amongst multiple virtual keyboards as you play, changing the assignments using MIDI pistons/buttons. The 'Registration menu: floating divisions' section in the main Hauptwerk user guide covers that (pages 110-117 in the current v4.2.1 version).

Hi Martin,

I'd like to use this thread as an opportunity to make a suggestion. I do not know if it would be (easy) feasible but it would be fantastic if floating divisions could include draw-knobs/tabs. I mean, when routing a physical keyboard to a given virtual one, its (physical) console draw-knobs/tabs would be routed to previously assigned draw-knobs/tabs of the loaded virtual organ. That way 2 or 3 division consoles (2 manuals plus pedalboard), which have around 12 draw-knobs per division, could handle 4 or 5 division organ stops, without running short of illuminated draw-knobs. Like the physical keyboards, for which floating division setup consists of assigning all or part of their keys to a "floating keyboard", floating draw-knobs/tabs could be done by assigning a part of the physical draw-knobs, so the user could check/change stop combinations by changing those floating draw-knobs to the desired virtual division. This hypothetical floating draw-knobs/tabs divisions could or could not be associated to floating keyboard divisions.

With this feature, the 33-36 draw-knobs/tabs of my two consoles, a Roland C-380 and the Viscount P-31, could manage all stops of much more division-rich samplesets, without recurring to touchscreen monitors and/or launchpads. I do think many other users would take advantage of this feature, and it would potentially promote license sells for bigger samplesets.

I wonder if this might help:

Floating divisions can optionally also take up to ten MIDI divisional combination pistons with them as their routes flip between virtual divisions. It works analogously to the floating division expression, and the floating divisionals are triggered via the 'Combs' row of buttons (right-click on them to auto-detect MIDI settings if you want to use them from MIDI pistons, as usual).
As with floating expression pedals, floating divisional pistons can only be used with a virtual division if the virtual instrument natively includes corresponding divisional combinations for the division.

Floating divisional pistons are described on page 117 of the HW user manual.

Whilst not "floating stops" can you use this with some sample sets to help?

(Whilst I make use of floating divisions with a number of sample sets I've not used the floating piston feature.)

With floating stops, I would find it hard to keep in mind the different allocation of stop to stop switch within the same organ sample set as the different floating divisions were mapped to the real keys.

Iain

[mdyde]

I'd like to use this thread as an opportunity to make a suggestion. I do not know if it would be (easy) feasible but it would be fantastic if floating divisions could include draw-knobs/tabs. I mean, when routing a physical keyboard to a given virtual one, its (physical) console draw-knobs/tabs would be routed to previously assigned draw-knobs/tabs of the loaded virtual organ. That way 2 or 3 division consoles (2 manuals plus pedalboard), which have around 12 draw-knobs per division, could handle 4 or 5 division organ stops, without running short of illuminated draw-knobs. Like the physical keyboards, for which floating division setup consists of assigning all or part of their keys to a "floating keyboard", floating draw-knobs/tabs could be done by assigning a part of the physical draw-knobs, so the user could check/change stop combinations by changing those floating draw-knobs to the desired virtual division. This hypothetical floating draw-knobs/tabs divisions could or could not be associated to floating keyboard divisions.

With this feature, the 33-36 draw-knobs/tabs of my two consoles, a Roland C-380 and the Viscount P-31, could manage all stops of much more division-rich samplesets, without recurring to touchscreen monitors and/or launchpads. I do think many other users would take advantage of this feature, and it would potentially promote license sells for bigger samplesets.

Hello abaymajr,

Thanks for the suggestion.

If I recall correctly, we did actually think about that when designing the floating division functionality for v4, but concluded that in practice it would be awkward, due to the need to remember which virtual stop each physical stop was controlling at any given point in time, and given that they would be changing dynamically

Anyway, I've logged it as an enhancement request for future (re-)consideration.

Hello¡
For new hauptwerkians interested in this topic, I have available an illustrated step-by-step guide Evert-Jan wrote for me during my childhood hauptwerkian years. Just sent me a PM.

Hello abaymajr,

Thanks for the suggestion.

If I recall correctly, we did actually think about that when designing the floating division functionality for v4, but concluded that in practice it would be awkward, due to the need to remember which virtual stop each physical stop was controlling at any given point in time, and given that they would be changing dynamically

Anyway, I've logged it as an enhancement request for future (re-)consideration.

Thanks for your reply! I think being practical or not is something more related to the way the user manages use this hypothetical feature. Look at these pictures I have just taken. They regard to some (among many others) simple paper-made templates I constructed some months ago and have been using them with total success since then.

These OAM Silbermann Ebersmunster templates were designed for the Viscount P31 console, which has separated draw-knobs for each one of its three divisions. In this case, I color-coded draw-knob labels for all 4 Grand Orgue, Pedale, Positiv and Echo divisions, so when some of them from different virtual divisions are sharing the same console draw-knobs divisions, it is easy to differentiate them each other. The templates (which carry many draw-knobs labels at once), fixed by not-so-sticky double-face adhesives, are easily and quickly replaced between them when I decide to load a different sampleset. It's an "arcaic" version of those innovative e-paper draw-knobs mini-displays people are talking about, yet cheaper and with much more visual quality:



For a floating draw-knob division feature, and in the case of a bigger disposition (in number of stops and/or divisions), it wouldn't be harder to build one of more of those templates with double stop labels. A slash or a double-colored draw-knob label would give the user enough information of which stop a given draw-knob is currently working for. I could even use one draw-knob as a selector/indicator.

As for the Roland C380 console, I built horizontal templates, which are fixed (and easily removed and replaced by other ones) directly to the console surface, and "run" in front of the tabs without causing any trouble to their actuation. For the sampleset (SP Boizard St-Michel-en-Thierache) of those templates, I use the same color-coding strategy.





Again, I could share tabs between different floating draw-knob divisions by double entitled/colored labels.

[mdyde]

Hello abaymajr,

Thanks for the additional details. I've added those to the enhancement log so that they get considered too at some point in the future.

Here is my approach to this problem in case you find it useful.

I have set up the lower keyboard on my 2 manual console as a floating division. I have set one stop on the console that toggles this keyboard between Great and Choir of the HW instrument.

I have gone through MIDI learn process using the Great stops on the console for stops on BOTH the Great and Choir so that each Great stop control on the console switches 2 stops together, one on the great and a similar one on the choir. It also have the Swell to Great coupler control the Swell to Choir. I also have one additional stop control used as Choir to Pedal.

I realise this is not a solution to every situation (as I cannot use the Choir and Great at the same time). However, it allows me to easily use the lower keyboard as the Choir during quieter pieces but use it as the Great during hymns and louder pieces. The nice thing about this approach is that I can use the combinations on the console to save this setup in the same way as any normal registration.

David

Hello abaymajr,

Thanks for the additional details. I've added those to the enhancement log so that they get considered too at some point in the future.

Hi Martin,

The correct thing to do, technically and musically speaking, is to have a console with as many keyboards and draw-knobs as the largest virtual organ someone intend to use. But sometimes this is not possible or convenient, so a feature like that comes for help. I will wait patiently for it, if it will be feasible any point in the future.

As I write this reply, an idea came to my mind: to use BOME Midi Translator as virtual extension of the physical draw-knobs. The idea consists on the following: when BOME Midi Translator intercepts a MIDI message for floating division changing, it will begin to translate MIDI messages from/to some draw-knobs to other virtual MIDI messages associated and learned to turn on/off stops from that activated division. I think this will work if there would be a MIDI message that Hauptwerk interprets as a general combination reloading, so the draw-knobs would mirror the current state of the just activated virtual division.

Does this MIDI message exist?

I realise this is not a solution to every situation (as I cannot use the Choir and Great at the same time). However, it allows me to easily use the lower keyboard as the Choir during quieter pieces but use it as the Great during hymns and louder pieces. The nice thing about this approach is that I can use the combinations on the console to save this setup in the same way as any normal registration.

David

Thanks for your good tip, although, as you have indicated, it has the limitation of not being able to rightly control divisions intended to be played simultaneously.

[mdyde]

As I write this reply, an idea came to my mind: to use BOME Midi Translator as virtual extension of the physical draw-knobs. The idea consists on the following: when BOME Midi Translator intercepts a MIDI message for floating division changing, it will begin to translate MIDI messages from/to some draw-knobs to other virtual MIDI messages associated and learned to turn on/off stops from that activated division. I think this will work if there would be a MIDI message that Hauptwerk interprets as a general combination reloading, so the draw-knobs would mirror the current state of the just activated virtual division.

Does this MIDI message exist?

Hello abaymajr,

I don't think I'm quite clear what you're asking. Could you clarify?

For example example, do you mean that your Roland C-380 organ ( https://www.roland.com/global/products/c-380/features/ ) has illuminated tabs and that you're hoping to find some way to make Hauptwerk re-send the states of all of its virtual stops via MIDI whenever the floating division route has been changed, so that you could write some script to interpret those stop-state messages to refresh the states of the relevant stop tab lamps according to the virtual division you were now using them for?

I don't think I'm quite clear what you're asking. Could you clarify?

For example example, do you mean that your Roland C-380 organ ( https://www.roland.com/global/products/c-380/features/ ) has illuminated tabs and that you're hoping to find some way to make Hauptwerk re-send the states of all of its virtual stops via MIDI whenever the floating division route has been changed, so that you could write some script to interpret those stop-state messages to refresh the states of the relevant stop tab lamps according to the virtual division you were now using them for?

Sorry, English is not my first language. But you guessed it correctly. Explaining further, as Bome MIDI Translator is the MIDI virtual interface I use between Hauptwerk and the organ consoles I have, I could program Bome MT to translate draw-knobs/tabs MIDI messages to customized MIDI messages which Hauptwerk would interpret (after learned so) as additional (actually virtual) draw-knobs, according to the current state of floating division. Even if Hauptwerk would not output any information that could trigger Bome to turn the translation on, this would not be a problem since I change floating division state through the organ console, what could trigger Bome translation anyway. This part of the problem should work. The other part is to make Hauptwerk re-send (refresh) states of all sampleset stops every time I change floating division route. Don't think Hauptwerk would send it automatically but it would be enough if there's a MIDI message that induces Hauptwerk to do the desired stop refresh.