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Rotterdam Main organ questions...

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Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby seh52 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:31 am

I enjoy a Mini extension version of the Rotterdam Main Demo sample set and just purchased the full surround version, so am excited to see how it will sound!
Are there any extensions or simple stop screenshots available for the full Rotterdam Main organ?
Has it been used to create any composite organs?
Since my computer only has 24 GB RAM, I must make some compromises. Would it sound better to load this organ in 20 bit mono, or in 16 bit stereo?
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby josq » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:21 am

16 bit stereo will be better. The quality loss of 16-bit is not very significant, only if you listen closely, if at all. On the other hand, loading in mono will destroy the stereo image, which I expect to have a far more detrimental effect.

An extension is in the make, keep an eye on this topic: forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15558
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby Arp » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:51 am

josq wrote:16 bit stereo will be better. The quality loss of 16-bit is not very significant, only if you listen closely, if at all. On the other hand, loading in mono will destroy the stereo image, which I expect to have a far more detrimental effect.

An extension is in the make, keep an eye on this topic: forum.hauptwerk.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15558


you can read the following link:
http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/blog/do- ... in-16-bit/
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby josq » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:18 pm

Yes, if you have sufficient RAM available, definitely use 20-bit resolution at least. But when I don't have enough RAM, my first compromise is on resolution. Simply because I find that other compromises (not loading the full organ, not loading tremulants, no surround, single releases, ...) have much more impact.

On my system, low resolution manifests itself mostly by having a bit more noise in the background, especially with large registrations. But usually it is very tolerable and in many situations I don't notice the difference.
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby mnailor » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:35 pm

The reverb is so long for this organ that you might also try loading it wet instead of surround, that is, just the front samples, at 20 bit compressed stereo, and leave out just enough less-used ranks to get the 25GB reduced to under 24GB.

Combining a lot of 16 bit samples really does add audible noise compared to 20 bit, even if small combinations sound okay. Even to my old ears...
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby seh52 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:30 pm

Combining a lot of 16 bit samples really does add audible noise compared to 20 bit, even if small combinations sound okay.


How does this 16 bit noise compare with the "Blower" sound?
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby mnailor » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:57 pm

Less. I never load the blower because it makes my subwoofer rumble...
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby josq » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:13 pm

Don't use the rear samples if you have one pair of speakers only (and no rear speakers). Loading the organ in surround only makes sense when you have a surround system.
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby sesquialtera » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:54 am

Don't use the rear samples if you have one pair of speakers only (and no rear speakers). Loading the organ in surround only makes sense when you have a surround system.


I disagree : When you're listen to a commercial organ CD on a normal HiFi system, (2 speakers), you listen to the result of a mixing between several microphones ( near, middle and far position or even more sometimes). Listening to music that way is still pleasant and acceptable.

I often use front and rear samples with Hauptwerk, only with two speakers. I don't own Rotterdam Main Organ, but if I had such an udge sample set, I'd prefer not loading all the stops, and keep front+rear and the 20 or 24 bit rate.
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby josq » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:03 pm

sesquialtera wrote: When you're listen to a commercial organ CD on a normal HiFi system, (2 speakers), you listen to the result of a mixing between several microphones ( near, middle and far position or even more sometimes). Listening to music that way is still pleasant and acceptable.


Yes, it is true that for a stereo only system, you can load the rear samples to add a bit more acoustics. Such mixing is actually becoming quite common in recent sample sets.

In the case of Rotterdam I think the front samples have a very good balance between detail and acoustics already. I just did a quick test on my set up. Adding the rear samples to my front speakers resulted in a small change compared to muting the rear samples completely: it added a bit more acoustics, but, judged subjectively, at a small cost in clarity and transparancy of the sound. (When testing without rear samples, I increased the volume of the front samples by about 2 db to compensate for the volume increase when you send front and rear through the same speakers)

If, due to RAM limitations, my choice were between muting the rear samples or muting ~20 stops, I would choose to let all the stops speak!
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby scottherbert » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:31 pm

I agree with josq, if memory is an issue, lose the rear. Something I do when memory is an issue that no one has mentioned, is that you can choose which stops to load in 20 bit, and some you can load in 16 bit. Their may be some that you may not like at all that you may choose not to load at all (I myself don't load the 1' pedal flute because I never use it.)

On occasion when faced with stops that have a L and R will load only one or the other, but usually only high pitched stops and mutations. I know that effects the tremulant, but I seldom use it. My choice, works for me. :wink:

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby OrganoPleno » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:33 am

sesquialtera wrote:When you're listen to a commercial organ CD on a normal HiFi system, (2 speakers), you listen to the result of a mixing between several microphones ( near, middle and far position or even more sometimes). Listening to music that way is still pleasant and acceptable.


This works great with Head-Phones as well. I enjoy the Rotterdam Organ fully loaded, front and rear. Now at 24 bits but it used to be 20 bits before my new Computer. I found that loading at 16 bits never sounded quite right on that Organ.
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby seh52 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:07 pm

Thanks for the thoughtful comments and ideas! Here's an installation progress update:

Given the limits of my 8-channel 24 GB RAM i7 system, I have loaded the Rotterdam as follows:

Front 6 channels: Stereo 20-bit for 8, 4, 2 2/3, and 2' stops; stereo 16-bit for the other stops; 14-bit mono for the noises.
Rear surround 2 channels (from upstairs stairwell): Mono 16-bit

I can already tell that with voicing and tuning, this Rotterdam virtual organ is going to be a great addition to the more than 100 other virtual organs in my collection. I'm looking forward to playing it, and hearing concert organists present programs on it for my "Stan's Music Parlor" series (listed on Facebook).

I hope to continue learning how to make virtual organs sound better by reading more comments on this Forum.
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby scottherbert » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:52 pm

So Stan, have you looked into adding ram? If you already have 24, your system may be able to accept up to 32, which would be as simple as buying a few sticks of the appropriate ram and installing them. Perhaps a future upgrade to look into? :roll:

~S
"Life is just a dream, it is in death that we truly awaken!"
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Re: Rotterdam Main organ questions...

Postby seh52 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:39 pm

So Stan, have you looked into adding ram? If you already have 24, your system may be able to accept up to 32, which would be as simple as buying a few sticks of the appropriate ram and installing them. Perhaps a future upgrade to look into? :roll:

~S


Agreed! When I bought an HP i7 computer in 2010, its 9 GB of RAM seemed like a lot. Last year, I asked the computer shop tech to increase RAM to 48 GB. He refused, saying its BIOS can only manage 24 GB. So, that's as far as this evolution can go, before a revolution. Would that be a new computer or just another upgrade, such as a new motherboard?
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