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Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry samples ?

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Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry samples ?

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:48 am

As a church organist in a large church with an Ahlborn organ, I do not use the internal sound generator and I prefer to use the console and the audio amplifier existing system with Hauptwerk to get better sounds. However, many very interesting samples do not exist in a dry version. It has been advocated to truncate more or less the wet version, using the release truncation tool in the HW software.
Some wet samples give worse results than others and I always have been desapointed by this operation, and finished to use an originaly dry sample. The main point is that in the truncated sample, the sound of each pipe remains dressed by its reverb. This is far more disturbing that the overall modification of the frequency spectrum. After each attack, we hear that the sound is growing. Truncating the reverb is not enough.
As a consequence, I wonder if there is not a way to return close to the naked sound.
Multiple released sample is a necessity to get realistic sounds (« harp-like » phenomena). Therefore it seems to me that it would be better if we could keep only the short notes samples.

My questions are :
- when the multiple release samples is off, which release samples are kept ?
- If the shortest notes are not automatically selected, is it possible to ask to Brett and to Martin to plan an enhancement, where the default mode concerns only the short notes ?

Yours.
Paul
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby mnailor » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:22 am

It seems like HW wouldn't be able to dry out wet samples in a generic way, because the sustain samples contain reverb themselves. HW can truncate release samples because they are separate samples from the sustain tone, and don't even have to be played. But to decide which parts of a sustain tone's recorded fluctuations are really the building's return seems almost impossible.

If samplesets were enhanced to use two samples for every sustain loop, one mic pair facing the pipe and shielded from the room, and the other facing the room, to play back simultaneously, then the second part could be not loaded as a rank to get a dry sound. I think.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:54 am

Perhaps I completly misunderstood the way the multiple release samples are built. In my understanding, short notes have also to be recorded to restitute correctly the staccatos in reverberating rooms. The time the key is down during the recording should be enough short in order that the echo effect is small. What I am saying to improve the simulation of dry samples from existing wet ones is to forget all the release samples in the wet sample except the ones which correspond to the shorter notes. Then, after a standard sample truncation, reverberation should be less present, an the dry simulation more realist.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby josq » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:51 pm

I think there are two reasons for having multiple releases

* it takes time to build up a tone inside an organ pipe.
* it takes time to build up a tone inside the room where the organ is situated
With staccato playing, both elements of the sound won't be fully developed. Only the latter is a matter of room acoustics, but I think the first is generally the most important.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby adrianw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:03 pm

I am not entirely clear on what you are proposing but I think you may have misunderstood how HW works.

I take your idea to be that looping a "short note sample" would simulate a dry acoustic, presuming that in this time the reverberation would not have built up significantly. Unfortunately for your idea there are no "short note samples" in the sample set: only the short-note release portion (after the key is released) is held. Even if there were, it is not a great idea since very short loops give rather poor fidelity.

Choosing a short-note release rather than a normal release might make the acoustic sound a little dryer but will certainly not transform the set into a dry one. It has essentially the same problem as release truncation: the sustain portion will still be exactly the same and will still contain the intrinsic reverberation. You could use CODM to experiment by creating a custom organ with only short releases but I don't think you will find the results worth the effort.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:31 pm

Thanks Adrianw for explaining me the flaws in my reasoning. I understand your arguments. I will certainly not spent time to create a custom organ with only short releases.
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