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Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry samples ?

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Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry samples ?

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:48 am

As a church organist in a large church with an Ahlborn organ, I do not use the internal sound generator and I prefer to use the console and the audio amplifier existing system with Hauptwerk to get better sounds. However, many very interesting samples do not exist in a dry version. It has been advocated to truncate more or less the wet version, using the release truncation tool in the HW software.
Some wet samples give worse results than others and I always have been desapointed by this operation, and finished to use an originaly dry sample. The main point is that in the truncated sample, the sound of each pipe remains dressed by its reverb. This is far more disturbing that the overall modification of the frequency spectrum. After each attack, we hear that the sound is growing. Truncating the reverb is not enough.
As a consequence, I wonder if there is not a way to return close to the naked sound.
Multiple released sample is a necessity to get realistic sounds (« harp-like » phenomena). Therefore it seems to me that it would be better if we could keep only the short notes samples.

My questions are :
- when the multiple release samples is off, which release samples are kept ?
- If the shortest notes are not automatically selected, is it possible to ask to Brett and to Martin to plan an enhancement, where the default mode concerns only the short notes ?

Yours.
Paul
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby mnailor » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:22 am

It seems like HW wouldn't be able to dry out wet samples in a generic way, because the sustain samples contain reverb themselves. HW can truncate release samples because they are separate samples from the sustain tone, and don't even have to be played. But to decide which parts of a sustain tone's recorded fluctuations are really the building's return seems almost impossible.

If samplesets were enhanced to use two samples for every sustain loop, one mic pair facing the pipe and shielded from the room, and the other facing the room, to play back simultaneously, then the second part could be not loaded as a rank to get a dry sound. I think.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:54 am

Perhaps I completly misunderstood the way the multiple release samples are built. In my understanding, short notes have also to be recorded to restitute correctly the staccatos in reverberating rooms. The time the key is down during the recording should be enough short in order that the echo effect is small. What I am saying to improve the simulation of dry samples from existing wet ones is to forget all the release samples in the wet sample except the ones which correspond to the shorter notes. Then, after a standard sample truncation, reverberation should be less present, an the dry simulation more realist.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby josq » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:51 pm

I think there are two reasons for having multiple releases

* it takes time to build up a tone inside an organ pipe.
* it takes time to build up a tone inside the room where the organ is situated
With staccato playing, both elements of the sound won't be fully developed. Only the latter is a matter of room acoustics, but I think the first is generally the most important.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby adrianw » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:03 pm

I am not entirely clear on what you are proposing but I think you may have misunderstood how HW works.

I take your idea to be that looping a "short note sample" would simulate a dry acoustic, presuming that in this time the reverberation would not have built up significantly. Unfortunately for your idea there are no "short note samples" in the sample set: only the short-note release portion (after the key is released) is held. Even if there were, it is not a great idea since very short loops give rather poor fidelity.

Choosing a short-note release rather than a normal release might make the acoustic sound a little dryer but will certainly not transform the set into a dry one. It has essentially the same problem as release truncation: the sustain portion will still be exactly the same and will still contain the intrinsic reverberation. You could use CODM to experiment by creating a custom organ with only short releases but I don't think you will find the results worth the effort.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:31 pm

Thanks Adrianw for explaining me the flaws in my reasoning. I understand your arguments. I will certainly not spent time to create a custom organ with only short releases.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Romanos » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:38 am

There are a few sample sets out there that have actual dry (or nearly dry) versions. I'd suggest looking into the Rosales in Portland. There are two front samples and the position that is closer to the console is nearly completely dry but not quite as harsh as if it were recorded in the actual pipe chambers. That would likely give you a nice result as you'd have a brilliant organ allow it to be refashioned for your particular room. (Just make sure you spend time voicing!)
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Romanos » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:57 am

Cavaillé-Cool wrote:Perhaps I completly misunderstood the way the multiple release samples are built. In my understanding, short notes have also to be recorded to restitute correctly the staccatos in reverberating rooms. The time the key is down during the recording should be enough short in order that the echo effect is small. What I am saying to improve the simulation of dry samples from existing wet ones is to forget all the release samples in the wet sample except the ones which correspond to the shorter notes. Then, after a standard sample truncation, reverberation should be less present, an the dry simulation more realist.


The usage of the word "short" is a bit of a misnomer. There is more of an effect in terms of the attack and then the release (which is being ignored or truncated in this example). You definitely want all of the multiple samples in a sample set. You're not going to be playing every note staccato. Truncating samples just cuts down the reverb tails on the release samples. The reverb tails are what make a sample set seem "wet" (in conjunction with the mic position of course).
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Cavaillé-Cool » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:35 am

Thanks Romanos for your comments. My initial idea was to use loops only inside the beginning of the recording. I had believed (wrongly) that the staccato notes were recorded on the same principle as the sustained notes. If this had been the case, we could have reduced the impact of the reverberation to get "pseudo dry" samples using the wet sample. Unfortunately, as Adrianw also indicates, the quality of the sound thus restored would be mediocre. What is the minimum sample length which should be used for loops to return acceptable sound in a church?
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Romanos » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:57 pm

It completely depends on the samples. As a general rule, you want as long of a [sustain] sample as you can get. Some companies to short/medium/long samples (again, this is independent of release samples). The longer the samples, the more realistic the sound tends to be as there is more natural variation that would be present in the real instrument. As it is, there might be a great sample set with 1 or 2 second samples but if you hold a key down that sample will loop 3 times in 6 seconds and there may be a poorly produced sample with 6 second samples and you'd still prefer the former. You really just need to experiment with dry or close-to-dry sample sets in your church to see what sounds best. I'd stay away from really wet sets or anything recorded at a long distance from the pipes (even with the reverb tails truncated) because you're trying to create an instrument in a room, not recreate a cathedral acoustic in your church. You don't want your organ to sound a mile away (even without reverb) when a "real" organ would be close right in the room.
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Re: Is it possible to improve the way to simulate dry sample

Postby Atn52 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:25 pm

To reproduce a pipe organ, you need dry, long mono samples, which are then emitted via the left and right analog C-CIS tray. These should be broadcast separately for each work, It would be better if each register had individual channels.
Unfortunately, dry samples are to be found only to a small extent, and the quality of the pipes over the entire key ranges is also not unbalanced and must be intoned..
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