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Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...

Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Wadih » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:08 am

Dear forum Members,

I have a feeling that in few years, I will own most of the sample sets available to use with Hauptwerk. I am sure many of you are already there. This is what makes Hauptwerk unique. On the way to achieve this, I buy a sample or two every now and then. This allows me to explore and enjoy every sample I buy.

I am on the verge to take a decision to buy a new sample of an organ in the Netherlands and your inputs will help as usual. I already have the Rotterdam main organ sample but I am looking for something smaller.

The choice is now between two sample sets, Hinsz at Bovenkerk and Batz at Utrecht. I am leaning towards Batz since I have Trost for the baroque. I know that one is Baroque and the other is Modern Romantic but my question is how close they sound. Organs in the Netherlands have a unique sound and it is clearly present in the Hinsz Sample but not to the same extent in Batz. Maybe because that sound characteristic is in baroque organs of the Netherlands.

The demos available and the sets demo versions are not satisfying to me.

I appreciate your comments and recommendations.

Best regards,
Wadih
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby anco111 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:47 am

What more can we tell you that you don't know?

Please try out these links.
Utrecht
Kampen

At Utrecht the 1st 'musicbox' and Kampen the 1st, 4th and 5th 'musicbox' (volume I, II and III) share a lot of the same pieces. Registrations written in the music title, so you should be able to compare (to a certain extent).
Both also display a nice amount of Bach's music.

While a lot of people seem to think that Kampen is a (strictly) baroque organ, please don't treat her too strictly! She can handle literally anything you throw at her..! (same goes for Utrecht actually)
(The unique dutch sound is definitely present in both organs.)
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby adri » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:12 pm

Since I am Dutch, allow me to answer.

I have Kampen; I find the organ absoltuely fantastic and inspiring to improvise on, both loud and soft, but its very wet acoustics and weak pedal, makes it less transparent to play big works on. They simply sound, well...muddy. Smaller works, with more intimate registrations sound great here.
A real romantic organ it isn't.

I don't have Utrecht, but the very wet acoustics there pose the same challenge. It apparently can be adjusted somewhat. But it remains wet. It does have quite a number of stops from an much older organ, but they have been adjusted to work with the Batz material.

Have you considered Vollenhove? Not so wet, transparent, well recorded, but the organ is a mixture of 17th C. Bosch material (on the Hoofwerk), while the Rugwerk is late 18th C. FC Schnitger; nice in itself, but very different in sound character. The pedal is 19th C. and matches the organ alright. It's well suited for earlier music if you limit yourself mainly to the Hoofdwerk. The organ was restored in the neo-baroque period, and the mixtures on this instrument, in my opinion, are too harsh. I have this set.

The Anloo set, 18th C. organ by Radeker/Garrelts in Schnitger style is extremely dry. Not to everyone's liking. II/P. I have this set.

The Midwolda set by Sonus Paradisi: late 18th C Hinsch organ with lots of stops for a village church. Not dry, not wet. Some reverb. Organ in Northern late baroque style (Hinsch was married to widow of FC Schnitger). I don't have this set.

Haarlem? It's a very large organ. Neo-baroque in character. As is Zwolle. Don't have either set.

Recent sets by Hauptwerk.nl, Sygsoft, include Hisch organ of Leens (not the greatest SQ), A Batz organ in Zeist (19th C.), a 18th C. Lohman organ (Leusden), and a few others. I don't have these sets.

A really good Dutch organ in clear acoustics hasn't been done yet, I believe. I know of one coming in the future that should be extremely exciting, but I can't say which one, and I have no idea how soon.


That's my feedback to you. Did I overlook some?

Rotterdam: Marcussen transept organ = not Dutch (neo Renaissance/Baroque)
Bergen op Zoom Ibach = not Dutch (German, bombastic, aggressive and loud; not poetic whatsoever)
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby adri » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:12 pm

Since I am Dutch, allow me to answer.

I have Kampen; I find the organ absoltuely fantastic and inspiring to improvise on, both loud and soft, but its very wet acoustics and weak pedal, makes it less transparent to play big works on. They simply sound, well...muddy. Smaller works, with more intimate registrations sound great here.
A real romantic organ it isn't.

I don't have Utrecht, but the very wet acoustics there pose the same challenge. It apparently can be adjusted somewhat. But it remains wet. It does have quite a number of stops from an much older organ, but they have been adjusted to work with the Batz material.

Have you considered Vollenhove? Not so wet, transparent, well recorded, but the organ is a mixture of 17th C. Bosch material (on the Hoofwerk), while the Rugwerk is late 18th C. FC Schnitger; nice in itself, but very different in sound character. The pedal is 19th C. and matches the organ alright. It's well suited for earlier music if you limit yourself mainly to the Hoofdwerk. The organ was restored in the neo-baroque period, and the mixtures on this instrument, in my opinion, are too harsh. I have this set.

The Anloo set, 18th C. organ by Radeker/Garrelts in Schnitger style is extremely dry. Not to everyone's liking. II/P. I have this set.

The Midwolda set by Sonus Paradisi: late 18th C Hinsch organ with lots of stops for a village church. Not dry, not wet. Some reverb. Organ in Northern late baroque style (Hinsch was married to widow of FC Schnitger). I don't have this set.

Haarlem? It's a very large organ. Neo-baroque in character. As is Zwolle. Don't have either set.

Recent sets by Hauptwerk.nl, Sygsoft, include Hisch organ of Leens (not the greatest SQ), A Batz organ in Zeist (19th C.), a 18th C. Lohman organ (Leusden), and a few others. I don't have these sets.

A really good Dutch organ in clear acoustics hasn't been done yet, I believe. I know of one coming in the future that should be extremely exciting, but I can't say which one, and I have no idea how soon.


That's my feedback to you. Did I overlook some?

Rotterdam: Marcussen transept organ = not Dutch (neo Renaissance/Baroque)
Bergen op Zoom Ibach = not Dutch (German, bombastic, aggressive and loud; not poetic whatsoever)
adri
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Antoni Scott » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:26 pm

I prefer the Kampen (Hinsz) as it is very well recorded. The reverb is long and the clarity remains. Very impressive but expensive. The Batz is also very good. I was considering the Kampen but was not able to try try it out first.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I was able to break my addiction to purchasing sample sets. After 20 samples I HAD to draw the line. Hauptwerk is a terrible addiction, you just want more and more.
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Andrew Grahame » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:16 am

Only 20? I'd better check into rehab!
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby adri » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:57 am

Andrew Grahame wrote:Only 20? I'd better check into rehab!


I must be totally looney as well! :D
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Wadih » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:02 am

anco111 wrote:What more can we tell you that you don't know?

Please try out these links.
Utrecht
Kampen

At Utrecht the 1st 'musicbox' and Kampen the 1st, 4th and 5th 'musicbox' (volume I, II and III) share a lot of the same pieces. Registrations written in the music title, so you should be able to compare (to a certain extent).
Both also display a nice amount of Bach's music.

While a lot of people seem to think that Kampen is a (strictly) baroque organ, please don't treat her too strictly! She can handle literally anything you throw at her..! (same goes for Utrecht actually)
(The unique dutch sound is definitely present in both organs.)


Dear Anco,

Thank you very much for your reply and for providing the very useful links.

I have been listening during the past days to both samples, very useful. The Dutch flavor is present in both sample sets. i am now likely leaning towards Batz set, price and surround are key factors behind my decision.

I will confirm which one I finally buy.

Kind regards,
Wadih
Wadih
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Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:10 am
Location: Dubai / United Arab Emirates

Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Wadih » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:20 am

adri wrote:Since I am Dutch, allow me to answer.

I have Kampen; I find the organ absoltuely fantastic and inspiring to improvise on, both loud and soft, but its very wet acoustics and weak pedal, makes it less transparent to play big works on. They simply sound, well...muddy. Smaller works, with more intimate registrations sound great here.
A real romantic organ it isn't.

I don't have Utrecht, but the very wet acoustics there pose the same challenge. It apparently can be adjusted somewhat. But it remains wet. It does have quite a number of stops from an much older organ, but they have been adjusted to work with the Batz material.

Have you considered Vollenhove? Not so wet, transparent, well recorded, but the organ is a mixture of 17th C. Bosch material (on the Hoofwerk), while the Rugwerk is late 18th C. FC Schnitger; nice in itself, but very different in sound character. The pedal is 19th C. and matches the organ alright. It's well suited for earlier music if you limit yourself mainly to the Hoofdwerk. The organ was restored in the neo-baroque period, and the mixtures on this instrument, in my opinion, are too harsh. I have this set.

The Anloo set, 18th C. organ by Radeker/Garrelts in Schnitger style is extremely dry. Not to everyone's liking. II/P. I have this set.

The Midwolda set by Sonus Paradisi: late 18th C Hinsch organ with lots of stops for a village church. Not dry, not wet. Some reverb. Organ in Northern late baroque style (Hinsch was married to widow of FC Schnitger). I don't have this set.

Haarlem? It's a very large organ. Neo-baroque in character. As is Zwolle. Don't have either set.

Recent sets by Hauptwerk.nl, Sygsoft, include Hisch organ of Leens (not the greatest SQ), A Batz organ in Zeist (19th C.), a 18th C. Lohman organ (Leusden), and a few others. I don't have these sets.

A really good Dutch organ in clear acoustics hasn't been done yet, I believe. I know of one coming in the future that should be extremely exciting, but I can't say which one, and I have no idea how soon.


That's my feedback to you. Did I overlook some?

Rotterdam: Marcussen transept organ = not Dutch (neo Renaissance/Baroque)
Bergen op Zoom Ibach = not Dutch (German, bombastic, aggressive and loud; not poetic whatsoever)


Dear Adri,

Thank you very much for your extensive explanation and examples. Nothing better than getting an advise on Dutch Pipe Organs from a Dutch Man :)).. very useful indeed..

A fully agree with you when you say "A really good Dutch organ in clear acoustics hasn't been done yet" and I look forward to any upcoming sample set.

There is a two manual pipe organ which to me sounds exceptional, I am sure it was never sampled, but this is the sound and acoustic I am desiring. It is the pipe organ of the Stephanuskerk Hasselt. Hopefully someone will consider sampling this beautiful organ. Another example is the three manual pipe organ of Evangelisch-Lutherse Kerk Den Haag.

For now, I think that I will likely buy Batz sample set. Decision is based on the price and surround option.

I appreciate your reply and comments.


Kind regards,
Wadih
Wadih
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Posts: 25
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Location: Dubai / United Arab Emirates

Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Wadih » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:22 am

Antoni Scott wrote:I prefer the Kampen (Hinsz) as it is very well recorded. The reverb is long and the clarity remains. Very impressive but expensive. The Batz is also very good. I was considering the Kampen but was not able to try try it out first.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I was able to break my addiction to purchasing sample sets. After 20 samples I HAD to draw the line. Hauptwerk is a terrible addiction, you just want more and more.


Hello Antoni,

I hope one day I will also become immune. Not sure if there is a magic number to stop at though!

Best,
Wadih
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Location: Dubai / United Arab Emirates

Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Mouter » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:59 pm

Antoni Scott wrote:I prefer the Kampen (Hinsz) as it is very well recorded. The reverb is long and the clarity remains. Very impressive but expensive. The Batz is also very good. I was considering the Kampen but was not able to try try it out first.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I was able to break my addiction to purchasing sample sets. After 20 samples I HAD to draw the line. Hauptwerk is a terrible addiction, you just want more and more.


I also improvise a lot and Kampen is a favourite- just lacking som base. A can also attest to the sample addiction phenomenon- we need a HA (Hauptwerk Anonymous) frum urgently ..
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Re: Btaz-Utrecht or Hinsz-Bovenkerk

Postby Andrew » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:00 am

Unless I missed it, no-one mentioned the 3-manual organ from Tholen offered by Voxus Organs. I don't have it, but the audio samples sound really nice. Sounds very clear, and apparently there is a 'slider' option that allows either a frontal recording sound or a more wet/distant sound.....or anywhere inbetween.
Regarding other organs, such as the Batz organ in den Haag or the Rudolf-Knol organ in Hasselt, I fully agree that these would be great, but I've heard from some people in Holland that some organ committees in certain Churches do not allow sample sets to be produced. Not sure about Den Haag, but I'm pretty sure that Hasselt and the Hinsz organ in Bolsward are not allowed to be recorded for Sample Sets.
As I've posted previously, I'd love to hear the organ from the Grote Kerk, Apeldoorn recorded for Hauptwerk. It was supposedly going to be done (about 2013?) but does anyone know anymore about this?
The tiny country of the Netherlands certainly has enough magnificent organs to sample-set. The enviable dilemma for sample-set producers is where next to record! :D
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