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Help with St. Eucaire registrations

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Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby 1961TC4ME » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:05 pm

Hello all,

I've owned the MDA St. Eucaire set for quite some time and love the sound of this little gem, but I'll admit I've been a bit stumped when it comes to registrations for this set. As we know some sets will come with a variety of registrations already as good examples to use for the type of song it is intended for, some do not as is the case here. Some time back an article was posted for the St. Max set with a very detailed guide of registrations to use depending on what it is you're playing and I found it very useful for proper registration. Anyone here willing to list some good registration combinations they'd advise for the St. Eucaire?

Thanks in advance!

Marc
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby Erzahler » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:12 am

It's only a small instrument.
I would listen to alot of French music then experiment to see what combinations of stops you like.
In this case exact recipes of combinations may not be better than your own exploration and listening. :D
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby engrssc » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:25 am

I agree with Marc - nice to have some (pre)-registration guides to begin "exploring".

Super useful as with the Paramount T/O sets where the sample set(s) are ready to play "out of the box" with the included c/a registrations.

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby dhm » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:31 am

Most French Romantic music (the kind you would probably play on St Eucaire) will have specific registrations noted by the composer in the sheet music. This should be a good starting point.
Obviously you won't be able to do everything the composer specifies because it's only a small organ, but in most cases you could probably come close.
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby evertjan » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:07 am

Jiri Zurek has written a blog about "Registration of French Romantic Music"
http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/blog/reg ... tic-music/
Maybe this can help you.
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby 1961TC4ME » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:41 am

evertjan wrote:Jiri Zurek has written a blog about "Registration of French Romantic Music"
http://www.sonusparadisi.cz/en/blog/reg ... tic-music/
Maybe this can help you.


Thanks all for the advice and for the tip here. I was not aware this one existed and will give it a good read. Patrick Larhant did a good write-up on St. Max registrations I referred to earlier and I found it very useful. These French romantic instruments on the other hand are an entirely different animal for me and the coupling pedals and when and how to use them is where I get lost. looks like this write-up will help.

BTW: As Ed stated, it is quite helpful (attention sample set producers) to have the set come with some preset registrations for us that are not so skilled in this department. I was lucky enough when I got the Armley Schulze that it did come with registrations and David a.k.a. Agnus_Dei was gracious enough to help me set things up further. Also, I just downloaded and have tried for the first time last night the Wurlitzer 310 from Paramount. Now here's an instrument where I have not a clue as to what I'm doing, if it had not come with an ample amount of preset registrations I'd be totally lost as I have zero experience with theater organs, but what a delightful little free set it is, quite interesting and I might get the bug. Now to figure out how to play something that resembles music on it! :lol:

Marc
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby Andrew Grahame » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:40 pm

Louis Vierne (1870 - 1937) - organist at Notre Dame in Paris from 1900 - wrote two splendid volumes entitled "24 Pièces en style libre" (24 Pieces in free style). The works are scored on 2 staves as they were originally intended as much for the harmonium as they were for the organ. Registration directions are given for the harmonium, and for a pipe organ of around the size of the instrument at St Eucaire. If you get hold of the scores this will give a snapshot of the basic tone colours in context with the musical textures commonly associated with those particular sounds.

http://www.free-scores.com/download-she ... ?pdf=84369

As to the harmonium registrations - these are indicated on the scores using the standard French number code. Rank 1 is a foundational sound at 8-foot pitch. Rank 2 is a foundational sound at 16-foot pitch. Rank 3 is a bright tone at 4-foot pitch. Rank 4 is a penetrating reedy tone at 8-foot pitch. Rank 5 is of similar tone colour and pitch to Rank 2 but it's tuned flat to beat as a celeste when drawn with Rank 2. G means "Grand Jeu" - this was a drawstop which drew a blind registration for full organ. E means Expression - a device for cutting out the reservoir from the wind supply so that the air pressure went straight from the foot-operated feeders to the reeds without being smoothed and stabilised en route - this allowed for very direct control of the sound by way of skilful control of the blowing pedals. The technique for using the Expression was quite difficult to master, but allowed the harmonium to function with a degree of expressive control normally only possible with wind instruments blown by mouth. There is no direct equivalent in pipe organ playing of the E function. The number or letter printed on the score indicates that this stop be drawn, and a diagonal line through that number or letter means to cancel that stop. The single keyboard on the harmonium possessed 61 keys beginning on C two octaves below Middle C, and all ranks are divided between Middle E and Middle F allowing for different sounds to be drawn in treble and bass. Also the knee-operated swell controls were arranged so that the treble and bass sections were separately adjustable. An understanding of these details is important when playing harmonium music on the organ, especially if suggested pipe organ registrations aren't indicated (although in this instance they are).

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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby larason2 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:10 pm

I agree with much of what has been said about this organ above, particularly that the best way to learn registration is to sit for hours trying different combinations. Once you know the organ, this permits a much wider range of creative registrations and sounds. It is truly a thrilling experience to hear pieces creatively registered by a master of a particular organ! On the other hand, I have seen first hand that many organ players just want to be able to play the organ, without worrying too much about registration and being creative in that respect. I am by no means a professional organist, however, I have spent many hours with this particular sample set experimenting, so I will try to pass on what I feel I have learned. Hopefully those more skilled in the art will be able to provide corrections or comments based on the below

ppp

Recit: Cor de Nuit 8*
Grand: Salicional 8
Pedale: Flute 8 or Bourdon 8

pp

Recit: Cor de Nuit 8, Voix Celeste 8*
Grand: Bourdon 8 or Flute Harmonique 8 +/- Salicional 8
Pedale: Flute 8, Bourdon 8 or Soubasse 16 + Flute 8 or Bourdon 8

p

Recit: Cor de Nuit 8, Voix Celeste 8, Viole de Gambe 8 or Flute Octav 4
Grand: Montre 8 +/- Bourdon 8 or Flute Harmonique 8 +/- Flute Douce 4
Pedale: Violon 8, Bourdon 8 +/- Soubasse 16

mp

Recit: Cor de Nuit 8, Viole de Gambe 8, Voix Celeste 8, Flute Octav 4**
Grand: Montre 8, Prestant 4
Pedale: Soubasse 16, Flute 8, Bourdon 8

mf

Recit: Cor de Nuit 8, Viole de Gambe 8, Flute Octave 4, Basson et Hautbois 8**
Grand: Bourdon 16, Montre 8, Prestant 4 (+/- Recit a GO)
Pedale: Soubasse 16, Violon 8, Flute 8, Bourdon 8

f

Recit: Viole de Gambe 8, Flute Octav 4, Flageolet 2, Trompette 8 (Recit Anches)
Grand: Bourdon 16, Montre 8, Prestant 4 (+/- Recit a GO)
Pedale: Soubasse 16, Contrebasse 16, Violon 8

ff

Recit: Trompette 8, Clarion 4 (Recit Anches)
Grand: Bourdon 16, Montre 8, Prestant 4, Doublette 2 (+/- Recit a GO)
Pedale: Contrebasse 16, Violon 8 (+ Tirasse GO Pedale) or Bombarde 16

fff

Recit: Basson 16, Trompette 8, Clarion 4 (Recit Anches)
Grand: Bourdon 16, Montre 8, Prestant 4, Doublette 2 (+/- Recit a GO)
Pedale: Contrebasse 16, Bombarde 16 (+/- Tirasse Recit Pedale)

Notes:
*/** I haven’t included any mixtures in the scheme. Sonus Paradisi’s excellent treatise on French organ registration mentioned above suggests that they may be used with louder stops to add some power. In practice on this organ, I found they are barely audible. Rather, based on my reading I feel that Cavaille Coll didn’t feel mixtures fit in very well with the timbre and concept of his organs, and that mixtures were added to appease members of the congregation who missed the sonority of the classical French organ mixtures (and mixtures in general!). As a result, I tend to use them with softer stops (*), which I think gives them a nostalgic quality. In theory though, you could add them as a +/_ to the stops indicated by the (**).

-In practice, on the Recit, the organ appears to be balanced so that you can use any combination of Cor de Nuit 8, Viole de Gambe 8, Voix Celeste 8, Flute Octav 4, and Basson et Hautbois 8 with relatively similar volume for each (though combined they are louder). This means you can be very creative with this particular set of stops, trying all kinds of combinations. I usually use the Violin 8, Flute 8, and Bourdon 8 in the pedal to balance.

-The Montre of the Grand and the Trompette of the Recit appear to be balanced quite well with each other, so that you can use them together with the Recit a GO, or use the trompette with many GO registrations as a solo voice. It overwhelms most of the other stops of the Recit, so you can add it at any time using the recit anches onto another registration for more power or a more soloistic voice.

-I haven’t included the Voix Humaine, principally because I feel it is best used as a character stop. Voix Humaine sits somewhere between the Basson et Hautbois 8 and the Trompette 8 in terms of power. It can be used instead of the Basson et Hautbois 8, or used to add interest to registrations with multiple reeds instead of the Trompette 8. Alternatively it can be used as a solo stop on the recit, or alone or in combination with softer stops such as the Cor de Nuit 8 or Flute Octav 4 for accompaniment with a solo consisting of a stronger voice such as the Montre 8, Prestant 4 in the Grand

-I found MDA’s video of Vierne’s Adagio from Symphony No 3 immensely helpful, especially for Pedale registrations that balance. Kenneth Udy did a very good job (and likely spent a lot of time) adapting a piece that is probably much easier to play on a 3 manual French organ to this organ, and I think he did it very successfully. Worth studying for sure.

-You could probably add 2 or more levels to each dynamic above, which is part of what makes these organs so fun to play and so creative to register. I’m sure a book could be written on the possibilities. This is part of what makes Cavaille Coll organs so interesting and enjoyable to play.
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby engrssc » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:54 pm

Thanks for taking the time to share that information. Very useful. Printed out your descriptions. Plan to try them
in the near future.

Good stuff. :)

Rgds,
Ed
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby 1961TC4ME » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:14 am

engrssc wrote:Thanks for taking the time to share that information. Very useful. Printed out your descriptions. Plan to try them
in the near future.

Good stuff. :)

Rgds,
Ed


Same here! This is what I was looking for, some registrations someone else is using or would recommend that I can try. David a.k.a. Agnus_Dei here on the forum and on CCH did the exact same thing for me with the Armley Schulze, including some registrations graduating in intensity per division. He also went into detail as to what stops to use and why based on what other stops are drawn. Along with what Andrew and others have posted here concerning registration tips for the St. Eucair or similar instrument, what to use and when has all been very helpful and leaves me with much to try and experiment with.

One thing I can say for sure, you ask and you definitely receive! I'm always grateful to everyone here who steps in to help and I've learned much, especially given the fact I started this organ passion years ago knowing ZERO. This forum has been a wealth of information for me because of those who are here! :D

Marc
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby Erzahler » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:14 pm

Yes, experiment or use the excellent suggestions that larason2 and others have so generously provided. Thanks it helps us all.
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby 1961TC4ME » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:31 pm

I got a chance to try some of the recommended registrations this weekend. Amazing how good (and how different as well) the St. Eucaire sounds when properly registered! Thanks again all. :D

Marc
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby Mouter » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:01 am

This was very helpful to me- I am a novice teaching myselp to play by ear mostly and having a good grasp of chords.
I love the Cavaile-Coll sounds an bought the Caen set. Is there anyone with similar suggested registrations for the Caen sampleset?
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby Jmecho » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:29 am

1961TC4ME wrote:
engrssc wrote:Thanks for taking the time to share that information. Very useful. Printed out your descriptions. Plan to try them
in the near future.

Good stuff. :)

Rgds,
Ed


Same here! This is what I was looking for, some registrations someone else is using or would recommend that I can try. David a.k.a. Agnus_Dei here on the forum and on CCH did the exact same thing for me with the Armley Schulze, including some registrations graduating in intensity per division. He also went into detail as to what stops to use and why based on what other stops are drawn. Along with what Andrew and others have posted here concerning registration tips for the St. Eucair or similar instrument, what to use and when has all been very helpful and leaves me with much to try and experiment with.

One thing I can say for sure, you ask and you definitely receive! I'm always grateful to everyone here who steps in to help and I've learned much, especially given the fact I started this organ passion years ago knowing ZERO. This forum has been a wealth of information for me because of those who are here! :D

Marc


Hi Marc,

do you know where I can find the Armley Schulze registrations recommended by Agnus_Dei?
Many thanks
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Re: Help with St. Eucaire registrations

Postby 1961TC4ME » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:52 am

This is what was shared with me for the Armley Schulze by division.

ECHO

As desired

SWELL

1) Open Diapason 8', Flauto Traverso 8' (Gamba or Salicional optional), Flauto Traverso 4'
2) ADD Oboe 8'
3) ADD Octave 4'
4) ADD Bordun 16', Horn 8'
5) ADD Cymbel IV
6) ADD Clarine 4'

GREAT

1) Gemshorn 8', Gedackt 8'
2) ADD Major Principal 8', Hohflute 8'
3) ADD Octave 4'
4) ADD Rauschquinte II
5) ADD Trompete 8' (Sub Principal 16' optional)
6) ADD TUba 16', Mixtur V

CHOIR

1) Soft 8's as desired
2) Add soft 4's as desired
3) Clarinette 8' (with or without other stops)
4) FULL 16', 8', 4', Cornett II-V, Clarinette 8'

PEDAL (to balance Great)

1) Sub Bass 16', Floten Bass 8'
2) ADD Violon 16', Violoncello 8'
3) ADD Open Metal 16'
4) ADD Octave 8'
5) ADD Princial Bass Wood 16', Octave 4', Posaune 16'
6) ADD Sub Bass 32', Trompete 8'

Marc
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