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THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...

THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby adri » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:39 am

The biggest threat to HW is Johannus! And the results are disastrous! And I am quite fuming MAD about it!

Johannus has recorded the world famous Aa-kerk organ in Groningen, an organ I grew up with as organ student.

They call it part of their "Live-Familie" expansion; you can buy the samples and load it into your Johannus organ that is equipped to do so.

I listened to a few recordings of it on their website, and it's absolutely terrible. Sounds like a vacuum cleaner, and nothing (did I say NOTHING?) like the real instrument. What a horrible, horrible shame. I feel like crying.

And what a horrible threat and blow to Hauptwerk.

They have money, and thus power, and power corrupts. It sounds so wonderful: we have the Aa-kerk, until you hear the results.

That they want to improve the sounds of their digital organs is fine, and their right, but to utterly destroy the original organ in the final results is a terrrible shock to me.

MARK MY WORDS: This company (and possibly others) is a big threat!

This is a big problem, and I urge all the sample set makers and HW/Brett Milan to come together to seriously address this issue to prevent HW being swept away one day, and discuss ways to either:

1. step up our own approaches and expansions, and
2. perhaps (if you cannot figth them), fidn a way to cooperate with these companies by licensing our software technology to such companies (perhaps this has been tried already??)

THE PROBLEM we as HW-ians continue face is our consoles: we have to do it ourselves, and it remains primitive and hobbiest for many.

A digital console from e.g. Johannus is instantly playable and usable and probably way cheaper than a custom built fancy-pants HW console.

Building your own console remains an (expensive) headache for many, especially the pedal boards and stop control.

I see nothing wrong in at least probing the possibilities.

We need to do something to safeguard the future of this fantastic software called HAUPTWERK. At some point even Johannus will break through the "soundbaririer", meaning: they will vastly improve their sound realism and equal or even surpass what we have done in Hauptwerk so far. And that would spell enormous trouble for us.

I have been in touch with several sample set makers, who are still being energized by a rather competitive spirit and sometimes say bad things about one another. I find this very sad.

Since we have a bigger threat looming over our heads: the digital organ companies, like Johannus, et.al., I therefore feel strongly and even urge that sample set makers, HW console makers and the Hauptwerk company need to come together to address this threat and come up with strategies to safeguard and also expand the future of HW.

Things are too quiet here, and in the meanwhile Johannus is doing things behind our backs, or while we are asleep at the steering wheel.
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby engrssc » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:16 am

Future potential threat, maybe. But if the sample set is as bad as you say, a minimal threat at least presently. On the positive side, I'm seeing many "die hard" real pipe only professional organists now considering Hauptwerk as a positive source for their own practise instruments. Something that only a few years ago would never have even been discussed, let alone be put into "practise".

(Skip the ad at the beginning) https://youtu.be/c5JXwPomD3c?t=707

At the beginning of the video, they discuss Organmaster shoes:

https://www.organmastershoes.com

But as you say, while H/W is superior, the hodge podge of consoles used for H/W is far from in keeping with the quality of Hauptwerk in many cases. That's a big drawback for many as they don't consider converting a dead instrument into something useful that they would be interested in doing. So many folks these days are in the plug and play mentality, ready out of the box. No fiddling around esp with a personal computer either. And that continues to be a bigger threat to Hauptwerk, esp in N America.

Many of the newer generation are in a word lazy as they have been brought up in a so much is done for them environment. That doesn't make them bad individuals, but just not eager to build a Hauptwerk system kind of person. And then, too, there isn't a vast number of consoles, pedalboards, etc available with the cost to ship existing units many times higher than the cost of the items themselves.

So it boils down, IMHO, to Hauptwerk being fixed in a smaller marketplace

Rds,
Ed
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby Erzahler » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:05 am

It might be a good outcome if Hauptwerk and Johannus can work together without Johannus trying dominate.
There might be demand from Hauptwerk users for bare bones consoles and as Johannes are set up for manufacturing they might be able to do this at a reasonable price and their own branded instruments would contain Hauptwerk under license.
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby tf11972 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:25 am

I don't think so.
As long as Johannus does not suffer any significant losses in sales, they will stick to their business model. Licensing Hauptwerk would be tantamount to surrendering; Johannus would be forced to admit that their tonal orientation was a mistake.
But the customer has the choice, he can decide for himself whether he wants it to be simple and with a poorer sound or more complicated and more realistic. A good Hauptwerk dealer will set up his console in such a way that he has as little to do with technical details as possible.
And as far as the sustainability of Hauptwerk is concerned, I don't see any reason to worry. The software is now so mature that even if it were no longer to be further developed, it would still work without any problems.
Best regards
Thomas

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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby anco111 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:22 am

Well, I can see why Adri is getting concerned.

Johannus is spending a lot of time and effort to make their organs sound as realistic as possible, while maintaining an organ console that requires little to no knowledge at all about complex software and a system that requires very low computing power.

Hauptwerk on the other hand, has come to a standstill. Yes, new samplesets are still being created, but the development of Hauptwerk itself isn't really going any further from the point we have reached several years ago.
I mean, how long have we already been waiting on the HW5 update? Is it ever gonna come?
That is something I am worried about, and others with me, as we can read here.

Yes, when considering realistic sound, the Johannus Live series cannot match Hauptwerk at this moment, but their sound and realism is improving.

Count in the fact that Johannus is apparently getting permission to record organs where HW-set producers don't get the permission and everyone can see that Johannus is a force to be reckoned with.

Johannus is doing what every company should be doing: developing, wich shouldn't be a threat..
But why does it take 7 years (almost 8 now) allready to complete HW5?
Yes, Hauptwerk is now a mature program, but is has come to a standstill, wich is worrying..
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby josq » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:24 am

The truth is a bit more nuanced. There have been two MAJOR updates in 2014 and 2015 (HW4.1 and 4.2).

Moreover I wouldn't compare Johannus directly to Hauptwerk. Better compare it with companies like Noorlander, they build integrated ready-to-use organ consoles based on Hauptwerk, have rapidly grown in recent years and have an advertising budget large enough to be a fully-fledged competitor of Johannes (at least here in The Netherlands).

Johannus has made a strategic choice for convolution reverb instead of long samples with natural reverb. Users can switch on a Johannus organ and play because memory loading does not take much time, but there is no perspective of obtaining the realism of Hauptwerk with this approach yet.

The only threat that I see remaining is Johannus obtaining exclusive rights to sample some famous organs, robbing the Hauptwerk community from enjoying these organ samples.
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby jwillans » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:19 am

josq wrote:The only threat that I see remaining is Johannus obtaining exclusive rights to sample some famous organs, robbing the Hauptwerk community from enjoying these organ samples.


You don't view Johannus or Allen acquiring HW as a threat? I do and see it as an extremely likely scenario either to give competitor advantage or to manage competitor advantage.
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby 1961TC4ME » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:52 pm

jwillans wrote:
josq wrote:The only threat that I see remaining is Johannus obtaining exclusive rights to sample some famous organs, robbing the Hauptwerk community from enjoying these organ samples.


You don't view Johannus or Allen acquiring HW as a threat? I do and see it as an extremely likely scenario either to give competitor advantage or to manage competitor advantage.


I guess I question why all this hoopla was even brought up in the first place as there's just about zero concern on my end and everything here is pure speculation. First off, I feel Hauptwerk has gotten to where it is not only because of what it does which is just about mind boggling when you think about it, but the fact the realism is second to none, we now have tons of instruments to choose from (who rivals that, and who cares if someone else maybe gets one or two organs to sample? BIG DEAL!), AND because it is a project which has caused many to go with Hauptwerk in the first place. Why? Because they enjoy this sort of thing (I do!), and like me, want to see what level they can take it to vs. buying something (that's likely rather high priced), plugging it in like a toaster and turning it on (boring!). You want a Johannus or an Allen type of arrangement? Go get one, but that's not for me. The many, many outstanding examples we've seen on this forum of what people all over the world have built and come up with is frankly astounding to put it mildly, and they didn't do it because they viewed it as a hassle, there's certainly easier ways, instead they did it (like me) for the enjoyment of doing a really cool project they can continue to build on and also for the love and passion of the pipe organ. I also did it to have something hardly anyone else has in their home, that's something that not only continues to give me many hours of great satisfaction, but also something that blows people away when they hear it. Interesting, my wife is a fairly non organ enthusiast and can take it or leave it, but it sure is funny when visitors come and she will take most of them down to the office to see what I have hiding in there! 8) Then of course they want to hear it, all the while my wife is standing there with a big smile on her face. Haha!

I recall these concerns being brought up some time back of Hauptwerk being sold or up for sale, or being taken over by someone else, questions popping up of why is it taking so long for this and that to happen and so on, and yes it is a bit curious to me as well that it's been a bit quiet concerning hearing from Brett and we haven't heard from Martin now in months. But I also recall at that time Brett pretty much telling everyone to calm down and take a pill, there's nothing nefarious going on, and everyone just needs to be a patient, along with Martin saying he was taking time to concentrate on the next version of Hauptwerk. So, I say let's all just see what comes, I think it's all good.

Marc
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby engrssc » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:39 pm

As I have said in various threads here as well. :D

Rgds,
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby magnaton » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:27 pm

1961TC4ME wrote:I guess I question why all this hoopla was even brought up in the first place as there's just about zero concern on my end and everything here is pure speculation. First off, I feel Hauptwerk has gotten to where it is not only because of what it does which is just about mind boggling when you think about it, but the fact the realism is second to none, we now have tons of instruments to choose from (who rivals that, and who cares if someone else maybe gets one or two organs to sample? BIG DEAL!), AND because it is a project which has caused many to go with Hauptwerk in the first place.


Hi Marc:

Thanks for bringing a realistic view to this thread! I agree with your thoughts. Phoenix organs now gives a option to incorporate a HW engine or choose their own proprietary sample sets. On other forms there was speculation that Allen would purchase the Rodgers brand from the Roland Corp thus phasing out their main competitor (once and for all). We all know what happened there. My perspective, Rodgers didn't offer any technology, patents, or market share that was desirable to Allen.

I've asked a couple of Allen dealers and a Johannus rep on their take on Hauptwerk. Their responses are similar with "It's a different market; hobbyist or collegiate level for historical reference". Of course the Johannus Live models are a tip-of-the-hat to the Hauptwerk concept. On the other hand, I've heard from a different source that it infuriates Allen when a church chooses to incorporate a headless HW system (especially using their existing console) vs upgrading to a new organ!

Danny B.
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Re: THE SERIOUS THREAT TO HAUPTWERK FROM JOHANNUS ET.AL.

Postby jwillans » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:35 am

magnaton wrote:
1961TC4ME wrote:I guess I question why all this hoopla was even brought up in the first place as there's just about zero concern on my end and everything here is pure speculation. First off, I feel Hauptwerk has gotten to where it is not only because of what it does which is just about mind boggling when you think about it, but the fact the realism is second to none, we now have tons of instruments to choose from (who rivals that, and who cares if someone else maybe gets one or two organs to sample? BIG DEAL!), AND because it is a project which has caused many to go with Hauptwerk in the first place.


Thanks for bringing a realistic view to this thread! I agree with your thoughts. Phoenix organs now gives a option to incorporate a HW engine or choose their own proprietary sample sets. On other forms there was speculation that Allen would purchase the Rodgers brand from the Roland Corp thus phasing out their main competitor (once and for all). We all know what happened there. My perspective, Rodgers didn't offer any technology, patents, or market share that was desirable to Allen.

I've asked a couple of Allen dealers and a Johannus rep on their take on Hauptwerk. Their responses are similar with "It's a different market; hobbyist or collegiate level for historical reference". Of course the Johannus Live models are a tip-of-the-hat to the Hauptwerk concept. On the other hand, I've heard from a different source that it infuriates Allen when a church chooses to incorporate a headless HW system (especially using their existing console) vs upgrading to a new organ!


Removed - on reflection speculation is not helpful.
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