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Hauptwerk on eBay

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...

Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby lefranc22 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:21 am

Thieves are always one step ahead of the locksmiths.
Last edited by lefranc22 on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby josq » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:53 am

Perhaps we all can take a little bit of action by reporting the illegal seller on eBay (he is easy to find right now). If eBay receives massive reports, perhaps they are willing to intervene?
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby josq » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:22 am

josq wrote:Perhaps we all can take a little bit of action by reporting the illegal seller on eBay (he is easy to find right now). If eBay receives massive reports, perhaps they are willing to intervene?


I reported them and that seems to work. One of two illegal items is gone. One to go!
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby ppytprs » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:42 am

I don't know if we're talking about the same seller. But when we report the ones on eBay UK, maybe the listing will disappear, but it'll soon be back. Either from the same user, or from a miraculous new user.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby josq » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:51 am

Sure. But the seller is a single person, I suppose. We are a large community. So if we do some collective checking and reporting of illegal items, we might quite severely limit the operations of this pirate. Meanwhile, it is up to MDA and the sample set producers to see if a more permanent solution is feasible.

Sample set producers stopping sales - that's quite a crisis. Any small help to solve this crisis would be useful, I guess.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby 1961TC4ME » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:45 pm

A couple other things I'll throw in here, then I'll leave it alone. I agree with josq, we are a large group and if ebay hears from us enough concerning sets being sold illegally there, I'm sure it will have some impact and or the removal of these sets. The onslaught might be enough that this particular seller just gives up if we as a whole make it difficult enough. Secondly, every sample set producer has to realize anytime you sell just about anything in this day and age you are exposing yourself to some sort of potential fraud and shutting down the sale of a given item I really don't see as the answer as those who are doing things the right way suffer in the end at the expense of some scammer. I'm sure many of us over the years have sold or had something for sale and have felt in some cases the person inquiring in our 'for sale' item appears to have some sort of ulterior motive. Some may have a gut feel who these people are already and it's up to your discretion as to whether you sell to them or not. Just because someone inquires doesn't mean you have to sell to them. I had a car for sale a number of years ago and the interested party asked if the registration was up to date before coming to look at it, this question should have thrown a flag at the time but I missed it. Now I know damn well he wanted to drive the car as long as he could without registering it in his name or putting insurance on it. I felt at the time something wasn't right but sold it anyways. Well, the buyer ended up getting stopped by the cops on a routine traffic stop and I got a phone call from them asking if I owned the car. Luckily the guy hadn't done anything major (yet) and was then forced to put the car in his name or not drive it. Lesson learned and again, I wouldn't doubt a few of the sample set producers here have perhaps gotten the same feeling (or now do) after selling to a certain party and may have a good idea who these culprits are. There's usually a pattern that shows up in identifying these folks, I see it on Craigslist all the time. If in doubt, don't sell to them. Better to do that than completely shut things down.

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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby adri » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:33 pm

Brett Milan has the emails of every registered Hauptwerk user. He can start by emailing every one a statement about this and what is being planned.

I’m sure a new encryption method could be implemented or added that is smarter than the existing one.
Then every user of Hauptwerk can have his dongle updated retroactively for all sets making these pirates sets totally useless.

Another take is this: in every business there is theft. Grocery stores, department stores, illegal copying of software, etc. etc.
Since this happens, they allow a certain percentage of revenue loss as “nornal” that can and must be anticipated. And cannot be avoided. To get a full proof system may be impossible but should that spell the end of sales or even Hauptwerk itself?

I have no idea how widespread this fraud is. But do we need to punish this entire community for the sins of a few? Can’t sample set sellers still sell to bonafide users of Hauptwerk? Especially old timers? I have been with Hauptwerk almost from the beginning and now I feel being treated as a potential law breaker.

I understand the system has to be fair to everyone. But this is a most unfortunate development.

Let’s resolve it with wisdom.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby jbittner » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:03 pm

The protection of digital media from piracy is never going to be 100% effective. The best to be hoped for is that cracking the protection scheme is onerous enough to discourage the typical user from the temptation of doing something unethical and illegal.

The music industry and Hollywood effectively gave up Digitial Rights Management (DRM) years ago after realizing that it was ineffective and that the incumbrance and inconvenience it imposed on purchasers hindered legitimate sales and actually drove piracy.

As an author and publisher of consumer based software in the past, I know first hand how discouraging and frustrating it is to see your work being freely and illegally distributed. In the end, though, it has to be considered a cost of doing business.

Taking product off the market as counter-measure solves nothing and is counter-productive. You've ceded your market to the pirates. Your honest customers will either find a legitimate alternative to your product or turn to the pirates in frustration..
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby anco111 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:02 pm

jbittner wrote:Taking product off the market as counter-measure solves nothing and is counter-productive. You've ceded your market to the pirates. Your honest customers will either find a legitimate alternative to your product or turn to the pirates in frustration..


Exactly that!
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby OrganoPleno » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:22 pm

The Real Organists and Music-Lovers who appreciate Quality will always be happy to pay for legitimate Samples and Programs.

The folks who grab "cracks" and pirated "warez" were NEVER really going to buy those Samples and Programs in the first place.

They are not the Target Audience. So the numbers of actual versus potential sales should hardly be impacted.

I understand that it feels bad to be "taken advantage of". But to refuse to share items of great beauty with those who truly appreciate them would be a far worse error.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby adri » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:53 am

It should be easy enough to go after those crooked eBay sellers.
Even eBay could block these guys.
Aren’t they even charging more than if you were to buy it straight from the sample set producer?
Any savvy customer should have buyer beware spirit.

This is what Brett can educate people on via emails.

Who are actually buying these pirated sets? Will they actually even work? Aren’t many of those sales hit and run? That is, you get the sample set but you have no way to run it and the sample set maker and Brett won’t issue a dongle update.

I hope also that we are not overreacting here by pulling sets off the shelves.

Sales of new sets should not be withheld from established and trustworthy Hauptwerk users. Like myself.
Why not do it on a case by case basis?

Thus sell only to those who have a Hauptwerk license In the first place.
If there is doubt the buyer can sign a legally binding notarized statement.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby OAM » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:45 am

Yes, we'll find a way of distributing especially to our faithful and registered users, perhaps with a special additional agreement.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby engrssc » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:36 pm

adri wrote:Even eBay could block these guys.
Aren’t they even charging more than if you were to buy it straight from the sample set producer?


Generally, I've found eBay isn't interested in doing anything to block or stop sales of any sort. Their interest is strictly in having buyers make pirchases - legit or otherwise. From what some (legitimate) sellers have told me, the "tilt" is in favor of the buyers. Ebay takes it's cut before it passes any monies to the seller.

No, the illegal sample sets are cheaper than the legits. But a point that was made, why bother to pirate and sell illegal copies for such a relatively small user base as Hauptwerk? These hackers have very little investment in their "product" because all the work has been done by the sample set creator. Their sales are delivered by download only so they don't even have shipping costs. So in effect, the hacker's profit margin is quite high. Hauptwerk and H/W sample sets are by no means the only ones seeing piracy. Many other software based preoducts (for sure not only USA companies) have come under such illegal activity as well.

Interesting, I remember at one trade show, there was a "team" of quite obvious foreign born, taking "rapid fire" pictures of a new product. Unfortunaetly :cry: one of these "camera persons" dropped the chip containg probably quite a sizable number of photos, but the (savy) person next to me picked it up and properly "disposed" of it into his own pocket, then winked. :wink: Walking away he said, "Too bad, so sad". :roll:

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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby adri » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:17 am

OAM wrote:Yes, we'll find a way of distributing especially to our faithful and registered users, perhaps with a special additional agreement.


This is very comforting to know, because I was getting worried with the Annaberg and Ottobeuren II coming up, which I am quite sure to acquire. I'll sign any agreement, even today.
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Re: Piracy on eBay

Postby polikimre » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:38 am

I think the hackers just broke the dongle, then looked for any software using it. They can then resell all of that. HW is probably just a small slice of the pie.

I don't know how a new system could be implemented. Send a new dongle to each registered user? Or have a brand new licensing system for a new HW version? That could actually make sense.

On the other hand, as mentioned by people above, there is no perfect solution. I'm sure we don't want to get to the windows model, where the OS regularly (once a month or year) needs to connect to the mothership to verify licensing. That would be a pain for a lot of installations.

On the other hand I'm puzzled and troubled by the lack of activity from MDA on this thread. The events in the last few months don't paint the picture of a company that is on top of things. I hope I'm wrong.
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