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Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

Existing and forthcoming Hauptwerk instruments, recommendations, ...
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adri

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 6:50 am

funny how responses have wandered off the original topic posted here by me.
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telemanr

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 9:26 am

It’s like the game we used to call “telephone”. Passed along from person to person a message gets farther and farther from the original.
Rob Enns
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Discipulus.veritatis

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 12:15 pm

Purator wrote:
lefranc22 wrote:To not find the one that suits you without tinkering yourself you must make great efforts. Hauptwerk users are great spoiled children.

I would like to have an organ with a Glockenspiel (Carillon), as this is something I really miss (take a look at this organ: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgel_der ... g_Kufstein). In HW1 this was not that much of a problem, especially since the .organ files were rather simple.

Now here is my task for you: I have an organ console with 4 manuals and I would like to use said console to play a virtual organ that uses all 4 manuals and has a Glockenspiel. Quite an effort, isn't it?


Dear Purator,

I am actually creating a 4 manual composite organ based on the Cologne Cathedral Organ, and it will have a carillon that will span the entire keyboard (manual), so I thought you may be interested. Here is a link to the website: https://organareginaecaeli.wordpress.co ... ept-organ/
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OAM

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 12:34 pm

Sorry, but slowly it really gets ridiculous.
This is a misuse of famous names and instruments and little has to do with the reality of these instruments and the corresponding church acoustics.

Just my two cents
Prof. Helmut Maier
OrganArt Media Sound Engineering
D-88662 Überlingen/Lake Constance
http://www.organartmedia.com
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Discipulus.veritatis

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 1:25 pm

OAM wrote:Sorry, but slowly it really gets ridiculous.
This is a misuse of famous names and instruments and little has to do with the reality of these instruments and the corresponding church acoustics.

Just my two cents


Dear OAM,

The aim of the composites are stated on our website, and are like you say, so it is a good response. God bless!
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sesquialtera

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 1:33 pm

Dear Discipulus ... ,
Please, stop with the "God Bless" formula , this is getting ridiculus too !!
God has nothing to do with that, I'm fully agree with OAM and Adri,
but I don't need to involve God everywhere !!

Cheers,
Sesquialtera
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Discipulus.veritatis

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 1:51 pm

sesquialtera wrote:Dear Discipulus ... ,
Please, stop with the "God Bless" formula , this is getting ridiculus too !!
God has nothing to do with that, I'm fully agree with OAM and Adri,
but I don't need to involve God everywhere !!

Cheers,
Sesquialtera


Dear Sesquialtera,

I thank you for your honesty. As for the God bless, it is not a formula, but rather a kind greeting or goodbye, and whether one likes it or not, I think it would be rash to change my actions out of fear or because they hurt someone's feelings if they are objectively good. A person will still wish good to someone even if the other is evil or doesn't want it, for a good person loves their enemies, and prays for those who persecute them. No one should conceal their beliefs on account of fear or intolerance, for that becomes tepidity and negligence. I hope I may have clarified the matter a little bit. May God bless you.
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sonar11

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 4:23 pm

sesquialtera wrote:Dear Discipulus ... ,
Please, stop with the "God Bless" formula , this is getting ridiculus too !!
God has nothing to do with that, I'm fully agree with OAM and Adri,
but I don't need to involve God everywhere !!

Cheers,
Sesquialtera


Wow. :roll: Maybe you and Adri and OAM should take a break from this forum for a while.
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josq

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 5:09 pm

To me, the main reason to be on this forum is to learn about all aspects of organs real and virtual. But this discussion is way too superficial because people resort to the extremes of derision and rejecting all criticism. What we need is constructive criticism based on thorough knowledge and analysis. We may need to reject some ideas and projects, but please let's do that based on arguments and understanding.
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sonar11

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 5:14 pm

josq wrote:We may need to reject some ideas and projects


Why? Who made you guys the gate keepers of what is a good project and what deserves to be rejected?

I think you guys need to take a step back from this and just let projects come and go on their own. If you think a project is worthless, that's perfectly fine, but there is no need to post about all that in a public setting. People can make their own choices. It's something different if a direct question is asked about comparing the quality of one sample set to another, but the whole premise of this thread is skirting the edge of snobbery and elitism.
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Purator

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 5:26 pm

It only needed like 30 posts to reach ad-hominem level in this discussion.

So, this discussion very much reminds of discussions I have experienced in a forum for model railroading (another hobby of mine). The discussions almost always stem from the fact that everybody defines their hobby differently. Some like to recreate a railway as detailled as possible, others don't care for details but want to have their trainsets composed "correctly", some are willing to fight over the lenght of the model being half a millimeter off while completely ignoring that the engine they use would never have been able to pull the coaches... and so on. You get the idea.

Now, the Hauptwerk community has grown enough (and is old enough) that there are lot of different ways of using Hauptwerk - both from the users and the creators view.
As far as I see it here (dumbed down for the sake of this thread so please, please correct me if I am wrong!), OAM wants to preserve valuable organs and allow organ players to play those instruments at home. MDA provides the player with a selection to start with if one just wants to have "a french organ" or "a baroque organ". IA has something for huge organs. SP provides very nice dry sample sets for using Hauptwerk in an environment that already has reverb. So, they all cater different needs, and different types of Hauptwerk users:

There may be the user who just wants to have an instrument to practice at home and looks for a sample set that resembles the organ he usually plays. There may be the user who enjoys playing different organs because he knows he will never be able to play the real instrument. There may be the organist who specifically looks for a baroque sample set because the church he works for has a very nice romantic organ but he just loves J.S.Bach. There may be the musician who is much into experimenting and likes to put a Wah-Wah and a Leslie after his pipe organ. There may be the organist who wants to have a specific disposition and is willing to go to great lengths to actually get it.

Now it might be a bit, well, offputting for someone, whose goal it is to preserve the sound of a historic organ, to see that very sound be distorted by a Leslie. However, aren't we all old enough to not get into personal fights over such matters?

P.S.: As for myself, I built my organ so that I have an instrument to practice on and to enjoy playing an organ with more than two manuals as all the churches I work at have very small instruments.

P.P.S.: In my master thesis I simulated organ pipes and was able to see some changes that happen when you change specific parameters of a pipe. So it might only take a dozen years or so and then you just write down the disposition of your choice, put in the basic parameters and send it to a supercomputer of your choice... :-)
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josq

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 5:55 pm

sonar11 wrote:
josq wrote:We may need to reject some ideas and projects


Why?

, but the whole premise of this thread is skirting the edge of snobbery and elitism.

Not because of elitist considerations, but based on good arguments. Those arguments are yet missing in this thread so I have not rejected anything yet. But I do have some worries.

For example, if people responsible for historical organs strongly object against the creation of composite sample sets, then it may become more difficult for sample set makers to get access to these organs. Or perhaps the responsible people will say : you can simulate the organ, no need to record it...
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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 6:09 pm

josq wrote:For example, if people responsible for historical organs strongly object against the creation of composite sample sets, then it may become more difficult for sample set makers to get access to these organs. Or perhaps the responsible people will say : you can simulate the organ, no need to record it...


You could just as easily argue that free composite organs might bring attention and sales to the "real thing" once an organist gets exposure to the set in one way or another.

Given the amount of very high quality sets that are available from some very important and historic organs, I think the concern you mentioned is not that significant though I understand where you're coming from. If an organ committee refused to allow their organ to be sampled simply because there are cheap composite organs available, then we may as well just accept that they were never going to give permission anyway and are just looking for excuses.
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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostTue May 28, 2019 6:14 pm

sonar11 wrote:
josq wrote:For example, if people responsible for historical organs strongly object against the creation of composite sample sets, then it may become more difficult for sample set makers to get access to these organs. Or perhaps the responsible people will say : you can simulate the organ, no need to record it...


You could just as easily argue that free composite organs might bring attention and sales to the "real thing" once an organist gets exposure to the set in one way or another.

Given the amount of very high quality sets that are available from some very important and historic organs, I think the concern you mentioned is not that significant though I understand where you're coming from. If an organ committee refused to allow their organ to be sampled simply because there are cheap composite organs available, then we may as well just accept that they were never going to give permission anyway and are just looking for excuses.


If my composite organs ever got that popular that the people who own the famous real organs found out about me, then I would either find the person who has been spying on me and telling the owners about me, or I would say these owners have too much time on their hands to be looking at random composites like mine.
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adri

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Re: Good idea for end users making new sample sets?

PostWed May 29, 2019 6:56 pm

Only those who are truly organ makers, not assemblers of parts, who understand about all aspects of making an organ from scratch, and are historically extremely well informed, in my book, can truly be called great organ makers/builders. To mention one random example: Like Flentrop, who was able to make a very amazing organ in the Catharinenkirche in Hamburg.

Take the harpsichord building world: you can have two Flemish style instruments from two different builders and they will sound very different. One sound extremely musical, and the other not so much. Why? A good builder knows how to listen to the wood he builds; has studied historical instruments thoroughly, and has learned from another master builder. He understands all the building principles and doesn't cut corners. Like Keith Hill or Max Doronin, who achieve amazing presence, sonority and resonance in their instruments, to mention just two examples I know about myself.

Likewise, if you are going to assemble an organ virtually from existing digital samples, and make a composite, can you truly say you understand deeply about organs and know all there is to know? Or are you only doing you best to melt the sounds together as best as you can? Is such an approach doomed to failure or at best mediocrity, or truly a pathway to success?

I know my personal answer.
I do not find composite sets very convincing; no, not at all.
(Neither poorly sampled organs; ditto for organs not really all that artistic to begin with)

I invite you to listen to the new fake Cologne sample set demos to hear for yourself.

If this sample set was a written piece, like a book, or article, wouldn't we label it as plagiarism?

What would Cavaille-Coll say?
Would he endorse or berate such efforts? Would he feel respected?

My hope is that we aim high, for the best quality, the highest musicality, the most inspiring original sample sets of truly worthy original instruments.

If you want my advise, just ask. My Ph.D. is in organology. I am here to help and assist in any way possible.

There are a few good organs in the world, and sadly, many bad ones. Let's aim high in this Hauptwerk virtual reality world.


By the way, this is what Jason Baruk writes on his website:

March 4, 2019Discipulus.Veritatis
Discontinuation
The owner of this website will no longer be producing any more samplesets. The remaining set will stay available.
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!
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